Salisbury 6 loadings, and other services...

[TheWalrus]

Hi

I spent about 2 hours at Salisbury yesterday, observing passenger loads on certain services, particularly the Salisbury 6 and the FGW to Brighton.

So I'll start with the Brighton, in regards to my previous thread. It was a 2-car 158, and there were few seats available. However it didn't seem to pick up very many at Salisbury, only about 6! Therefore maybe it is a good idea to retain the Brighton services as 2 car units

The Salisbury 6 was very lightly loaded. One service - I think it was the 13:46 - left with only 3 passengers onboard. Can anyone tell me how the passenger loadings change on the SAL 6 services throughout the journey?

Another thing that struck me was the light loadings of the arrivals from London Waterloo. The Exeter's seemed to offload a good few, but the terminators only offloaded about 12. How busy are they on departure from WAT?

Going back to FGW, I saw the 1306 departure (1226 off Southampton Cent.) to WOF. This arrived with around 12 pax, about 2 alighted and 5 boarded, and departed with about 15 onboard. This train was formed of a 2x153. Is it busy north of Westbury and if so, why run it between Southampton and Westbury?

Many thanks, I hope you can answer my questions

Ryan

 

[wibble]

Off peak, the Waterloo - Salisbury services aren't that heavily loaded compared to the Waterloo - Exeter services, but they are the only trains that serve Overton, Whitchurch and Grateley.

I suspect the Salisbury - Waterloo trains provide additional capacity for those travelling between Basingstoke, Woking and Waterloo, as well as intermediate journeys at the western end.

 

[Greenback]

In a well constructed timetable, the longer distance trains (ie Exter in this case) should be fast, and omit some of the smaller stops nearer the origin, allowing these to be served by the slower trains which don't go so far. This means that more passengers will choose to travel on the faster services, provided of course that they are going to one of the places it stops at!

I assume this is the case at Salisbury, where the people who do get off the terminators have probably largely come from the intermediate stations rather than all the way from Waterloo.

Whenever I've passed through Salisbury station, it's usually been a pretty busy place. Mind you, I don't think I've ever been there in the middle of the day on a Thursday, whcih might be a relatively quiet time - it is in most places!

 

[TheWalrus]

In a well constructed timetable, the longer distance trains (ie Exter in this case) should be fast, and omit some of the smaller stops nearer the origin, allowing these to be served by the slower trains which don't go so far. This means that more passengers will choose to travel on the faster services, provided of course that they are going to one of the places it stops at!

I assume this is the case at Salisbury, where the people who do get off the terminators have probably largely come from the intermediate stations rather than all the way from Waterloo.

Whenever I've passed through Salisbury station, it's usually been a pretty busy place. Mind you, I don't think I've ever been there in the middle of the day on a Thursday, whcih might be a relatively quiet time - it is in most places!

I would have a stopper Axminster/Honiton-Exeter and transfer Woking and Clapham to other services. Thus the stopping pattern would be: Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne, Yeovil, Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Exeter Cent., St. Davids.

 

[moonrakerz]

Going back to FGW, I saw the 1306 departure (1226 off Southampton Cent.) to WOF. This arrived with around 12 pax, about 2 alighted and 5 boarded, and departed with about 15 onboard. This train was formed of a 2x153. Is it busy north of Westbury and if so, why run it between Southampton and Westbury?

I have long wondered about the logic of some of these services myself. There are several Gt Malvern (WOF) services that start from Warminster. The train starts from Westbury, runs out to Warminster, reverses/crosses over and goes back again - first stop Westbury !
There are five direct services from Warminster to WOF (and beyond) per day, but only one direct service in the opposite direction, with most of the "return" services heading down to Weymouth. There are no direct services back to WOF from Weymouth(edit)

There seems to be little co-ordination, both within and between the TOCs. The result is that some trains are jammed packed whilst others are relatively/totally empty. Between 10:00 and 12:00 Warminster is like Clapham Junction, with trains going to Portsmouth, Southampton, Cardiff, Westbury, Temple Meads, Gt Malvern, Terminating, Starting.
There are two FGW services linking Westbury and Soton just 8 minutes apart !

Your observations might seem to suggest that a TOC split at Salisbury might be a better solution, with FGW operating North of there and SWT operating to the South. (But leave the SWT BRI - WAT service alone - because I use it a fair bit !) This would then allow FGW to provide 4 car trains between Temple Meads and Salisbury - long needed !

 

[Greenback]

Some apparently ludicrous timetabling can be put down to difficulties with pathing at major conflicting junctions. But it sounds like the Great Malvern/Warminster services are catering to local flows rather than through passengers. Also, in order to timetable a slower service, it may sometimes be necessary for it to leave shortly after a fast service has departed. This can provide a good connection for passengers for the smaller stations who alight from the fast train and have just a few minutes wait before the slow train goes.

 

[TheWalrus]

The train starts from Westbury, runs out to Warminster, reverses/crosses over and goes back again - first stop Westbury!

There are two FGW services linking Westbury and Soton just 8 minutes apart !

Your observations might seem to suggest that a TOC split at Salisbury might be a better solution,

(But leave the SWT BRI - WAT service alone - because I use it a fair bit !)

On your first point, most of these call Dilton Marsh.

There is a 1102 and an 1110? Westbury-Soton, and the only difference is the second one calls at Dilton. How pointless when the first one could just stop off there?

Instead of a TOC split, I would recommend a TOC merge. All SWT diesel routes go to FGW, resulting in better capacity efficiency between the current-FGW and current-SWT routes. E.g. 153s for Sals-ROmsey. FGW could also take charge of Salisbury depot, enabling more efficient stabling of trains. Also it removes competition on Exeter-London, & leaves FGW open to operate Exeter-Axminster stoppers to give a half-hourly service, using more suitable stock like 150s.

What stations do you use the WAT-BRI between?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But it sounds like the Great Malvern/Warminster services are catering to local flows rather than through passengers.

That's exactly the point! They are designed to cater for Warminster-Bristol and Bristol-Malvern, but they link them up to give cross-Bristol opportunities, e.g. Bath - Filton.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, so there's not really a need for direct services from Great Malvern to Westbury - as long as they cover Filton to Bath and Bristol - Warminster, it doesn't matter if there's only one through train!

I like the merger idea!

 

[swt_passenger]

I would have a stopper Axminster/Honiton-Exeter and transfer Woking and Clapham to other services. Thus the stopping pattern would be: Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne, Yeovil, Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Exeter Cent., St. Davids.

The existing infrastructure cannot support a separate stopping service.

Woking is the obvious interchange for local stations from there towards London, Clapham Jn stops in the off peak are spread across a range of longer distance origins/destinations - why not on the Exeter route as well? If they aren't justified on this route, why are they more sensible in Portsmouths or Weymouths?

By the way, is there a good reason why this is in 'Tours and Special Workings'?

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

The Clapham calls in the XX:00, XX:30 (Portsmouth Hbr) & XX:35 (Weymouth) services cannot be accommodated without compromising the service, this has been stated on numerous occasions when they (SWT) have a MD online chat with us members of public.

Delete Woking from Waterloo-Exeter services, you're having a laugh (aren't you?), it's one of the most popular services to/from Woking!
If anything they should run fast from Waterloo-Woking & pop the Clapham stop into the Salisbury "local" service.

 

[moonrakerz]

On your first point, most of these call Dilton Marsh.

Rarely !

There is a 1102 and an 1110? Westbury-Soton, and the only difference is the second one calls at Dilton. How pointless when the first one could just stop off there?

If requested...

What stations do you use the WAT-BRI between?

WMN - WAT: Weekdays for museums etc, Sats to The Emirates.
0946(d) Up. 2116(a) Back - £6.60 each way - absolute bargain !

 

[TheWalrus]

Delete Woking from Waterloo-Exeter services, you're having a laugh (aren't you?), it's one of the most popular services to/from Woking!
If anything they should run fast from Waterloo-Woking & pop the Clapham stop into the Salisbury "local" service.

Could do, I've had that idea.

If FGW were to ask for SWTs diesel routes, SWT may need a compromise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WMN - WAT: Weekdays for museums etc, Sats to The Emirates.
0946(d) Up. 2116(a) Back - £6.60 each way - absolute bargain !

Fair enough Isn't it better to change at WSB and go into Padd.?

 

[Helvellyn]

If FGW were to ask for SWTs diesel routes, SWT may need a compromise.

This was actually considered by the SRA before the Greater Western franchise was formed. The plan, however, would have seen SWT's Waterloo-Salisbury-Exeter services (and I guess Romsey-Totton) transferred to Wessex Trains as part of a plan to beef that franchise up and give it a large maintenance depot at Salisbury. What did happen though was that the SRA wanted to reduce the number of TOCs serving individual London Terminals, so giving Wessex the WoE route would have gone against that. It was from this decision that SWT got permission to operate some Waterloo-Bristol services, replacing the previous Wessex services.

There might be more logic in transferring the Portsmouth-Salisbury-Cardiff services to SWT, though if that happened I think they'd end up cut back to Portsmouth-Salisbury-Bristol. Another unlikely option would be for the Waterloo-Salisbury stopper to be extended to Westbury of Bristol every hour, aloowing FGW to maybe take the odd stop out of the Portsmouth-Cardiff services.

 

[moonrakerz]

Fair enough Isn't it better to change at WSB and go into Padd.?

1. No changing on the SWT service.
2. SWT journey time is less.
3. Lowest SWT fare ( 2 AP Singles) £12.20.(1st Class is only £22.40).
4. Lowest FGW fare (SOPR) £32.20.
5. No 4 bus (free) direct from WAT to The Emirates.

6. No contest !

 

[devon_metro]

On your first point, most of these call Dilton Marsh.

There is a 1102 and an 1110? Westbury-Soton, and the only difference is the second one calls at Dilton. How pointless when the first one could just stop off there?

Instead of a TOC split, I would recommend a TOC merge. All SWT diesel routes go to FGW, resulting in better capacity efficiency between the current-FGW and current-SWT routes. E.g. 153s for Sals-ROmsey. FGW could also take charge of Salisbury depot, enabling more efficient stabling of trains. Also it removes competition on Exeter-London, & leaves FGW open to operate Exeter-Axminster stoppers to give a half-hourly service, using more suitable stock like 150s.

What stations do you use the WAT-BRI between?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That's exactly the point! They are designed to cater for Warminster-Bristol and Bristol-Malvern, but they link them up to give cross-Bristol opportunities, e.g. Bath - Filton.

1110 WSB - SOU provides a connection off the 0646 Penzance - Paddington. It's well used.

 

[moonrakerz]

1110 WSB - SOU provides a connection off the 0646 Penzance - Paddington. It's well used.

I was actually at Warminster this morning when this went through, it was a single car 153, with about 20 on board.
I did notice that there were a few people who were on the platform when the preceding service to Portsmouth went through, who boarded the Soton train. As there are no additional stops for this service, one assumes they were "in the know" and realised that they would get a seat on the 153 which they would have struggled to do on the earlier 3 car 158.

 

[devon_metro]

I was actually at Warminster this morning when this went through, it was a single car 153, with about 20 on board.
I did notice that there were a few people who were on the platform when the preceding service to Portsmouth went through, who boarded the Soton train. As there are no additional stops for this service, one assumes they were "in the know" and realised that they would get a seat on the 153 which they would have struggled to do on the earlier 3 car 158.

It's often wedged when the sailors are travelling, presumably not a time to be travelling South Coast > Plymouth v/v

 

[TheWalrus]

1110 WSB - SOU provides a connection off the 0646 Penzance - Paddington. It's well used.

I will look into this at Westbury on thursday. Thanks for bringing this up
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was actually at Warminster this morning when this went through, it was a single car 153, with about 20 on board.
I did notice that there were a few people who were on the platform when the preceding service to Portsmouth went through, who boarded the Soton train. As there are no additional stops for this service, one assumes they were "in the know" and realised that they would get a seat on the 153 which they would have struggled to do on the earlier 3 car 158.

How busy was the Pompey?

 

[moonrakerz]

I will look into this at Westbury on thursday.

How busy was the Pompey?

Very - just a few empty seats. There must have been about 30 people got on at Warminster.

 

[moonrakerz]

The trains on the Cardiff - Portsmouth line are really getting beyond a joke now.

I was at Warminster yesterday going to Salisbury/Waterloo. I was going to get the 1108 - jam packed, in a 3 car 158.
Waited a few more minutes and got the 1116, 2 car 150, 40/50 on board.

Whilst we were waiting, the 1101 to Cardiff passed through, 2 car 158, people standing already, 30/40 struggled to get on. 10 mins later the SWT service from Waterloo to Temple Meads arrived - oodles of seats.

Firstly, I feel that there really is something wrong when trains are that (over ?) crowded on a Saturday morning outside of the "rush hour".
Secondly, there seems to be no way of informing passengers of alternate options.
The CIS consists of a couple of 1960 vintage TVs locked away in the waiting room and in a cupboard about 12 ft in the air. Unless you are "in the know", these alternate services are unknown to Saturday shoppers on their way to Bath or Bristol.

Mind you - they have spent thousands just putting in two "help points " - very helpful - AND they did paint the station a while back.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do FGW show the SWT services on the platform timetable posters at Warminster? IIRC at Romsey (FGW), you have to look up separate FGW and SWT timetables to get the full service picture...

As yo say, pax might just not realise about the following SWT...