'Safeguarding issues' caused by timetable changes

[Bertie the bus]

Counterintuitive flows of school pupils in Cumbria is an odd thing.

Things like that though are the reasons timetables evolve and are tweaked over the years. There will be many flows throughout the country that random people from elsewhere wouldn't think are significant but the local transport operators should, and will be, aware of them and should cater for them. Just binning existing timetables which work is unprofessional.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't recall saying it was Northern's problem. I just wondered that as EssexGonzo thinks opening up the school early is such a trivial matter, who does he think is going to pay for it?

i suspect that is the real point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nonsense. It isn't 'a big win' if the services used by the largest number of passengers are of little use to them. An hourly off peak service throughout the day is a) probably not even required and b) is of signficantly less importance than the busier services in the morning and afternoon.

Let's see what the passenger numbers bring. Like Merseyrail, I personally strongly believe the simple "N minutes past each hour at any time I'm likely to want" is going to bring huge growth - and the change doesn't, I believe, even require an extra unit or crew, just some clever planning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

i suspect that is the real point.

If you simply shifted the whole school day 10 or 15 minutes earlier, I doubt anyone would need to pay for anything barring letters to parents telling them of the change. But that is only sensible if nearly all the children are from Barrow and use the train for school.

 

[Ianno87]

Counterintuitive flows of school pupils in Cumbria is an odd thing. I regularly use the mid afternoon Manchester-Edinburgh Transpennine service and it gets absolutely swamped with them between Penrith and Carlisle. I suspect that the Ulverston school is considered superior to that of anything provided in Barrow, just as what's on offer in Penrith is thought better than Carlisle.

Somehow I can't see TPE being too interested if anyone kicked off about Manchester Airport-Scotland times not working to suit a school in Penrith...

I find TOCs usually to be pretty switched on to trying to satisfy bespoke local flows (e.g. schools), especially on "rural" or secondary lines; normally because it's worth their bother as it can be a significant source of revenue for that line that is otherwise lost.

Penrith I suspect would be a case of "bigger fish to fry" with the timetable; and its not like TPE are the only potential service provider.

 

[mpthomson]

It's also not glaringly obvious that kids would travel from a larger town to a smaller town to school when Barrow has schools itself (though I'm sure the parents have their reasons). The demand would logically be the other way round.

Which ignores the fact that the Ulverston school is by some margin the best school in the area and has capacity to take children from Barrow too, as well as Roose, Dalton, Grange over Sands etc. So it's very popular with parents.

 

[mpthomson]

If you simply shifted the whole school day 10 or 15 minutes earlier, I doubt anyone would need to pay for anything barring letters to parents telling them of the change. But that is only sensible if nearly all the children are from Barrow and use the train for school.

It's not just 'simply'. Dependent on how long the current school hours have existed for it's a fairly big job as it requires a consultation on working hours for all the domestic and admin staff at the school plus the academic staff to open up. You can't just tell staff that they suddenly have to lengthen their working hours and given that it would have to happen you couldn't rely on goodwill either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not just 'simply'. Dependent on how long the current school hours have existed for it's a fairly big job as it requires a consultation on working hours for all the domestic and admin staff at the school plus the academic staff to open up. You can't just tell staff that they suddenly have to lengthen their working hours and given that it would have to happen you couldn't rely on goodwill either.

Did you actually read what I posted?

No need for anyone to lengthen anything - just open 10 minutes earlier and close 10 minutes earlier. It's somewhat de-minimis.

 

[Llanigraham]

If you simply shifted the whole school day 10 or 15 minutes earlier, I doubt anyone would need to pay for anything barring letters to parents telling them of the change. But that is only sensible if nearly all the children are from Barrow and use the train for school.

But you forget all the other things that then need to be moved 15 minutes forward:
School buses
School taxis (Yes they do get used in many rural areas)
Crossing patrols
Parking restrctions outside schools
Caretakers hours
Teaching assistants hours
and probably many more.

It isn't that simple!

 

[Chris M]

But you forget all the other things that then need to be moved 15 minutes forward:
School buses
School taxis (Yes they do get used in many rural areas)
Crossing patrols
Parking restrctions outside schools
Caretakers hours
Teaching assistants hours
and probably many more.

It isn't that simple!

Also needing to change would be:
Catering staff hours
Deliveries - at least at my old school these were always timed to avoid breaks and lunchtime
Any before and/or after school clubs, and the hours of the staff who run them (who may or may not be employed by the school)
Possibly the timing of sports matches with other schools
Probably the working hours of some parents who time their day around school hours
Local service bus provision - if routes are infrequent then services around school starting and finishing times are often strengthened or run a different route to better serve the school.
Times when the school facilities by the local community - swimming pools and gyms for example are often used by adults before work. This will mean leisure centre staff's hours will likely need to change.
And there are still likely things that have not been mentioned.

At least most of these things are not impossible to change, but it will require significant effort and time - in some cases on the order of months - and any changes would need to be aligned with the start of a school term (September, January or March/April depending when Easter falls). So it really is far from "simple" as suggested.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Let's see what the passenger numbers bring. Like Merseyrail, I personally strongly believe the simple "N minutes past each hour at any time I'm likely to want" is going to bring huge growth - and the change doesn't, I believe, even require an extra unit or crew, just some clever planning.

That, I'm afraid, is just your usual fantasy. When reading it I did wonder whether the Germans have a word for it.

Ignoring current passengers so you just might appeal to people who don't use public transport is ridiculous in the extreme.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ignoring current passengers so you just might appeal to people who don't use public transport is ridiculous in the extreme.

It's nothing of the sort. Only a very low percentage of journeys are done by public transport. Ignoring why they don't use it is ridiculous in the extreme.

 

[bb21]

So my question is, Mr Butler, did your school or your governing body make representations during the consultation process to Northern regarding the impact of any potential changes on your children and subsequent "safeguarding" issues?

Really, if there really is such a big issue, the council can simply arrange school buses. The kids all have to pay for rail travel at the moment right? Get them to pay for the bus instead. Vote with your feet. Show Northern your disapproval with your wallet.

Yes, the council probably is already squeezed for funding, but much of the funding for the school bus can be covered by fares income, and if it really is such a big issue then surely the remainder of the costs would be a worthwhile spend by the council.

 

[DarloRich]

So my question is, Mr Butler, did your school or your governing body make representations during the consultation process to Northern regarding the impact of any potential changes on your children and subsequent "safeguarding" issues?

Probably not - assuming they knew there was a consultation and that they could take part - but in any event the safeguarding issue ( if there is one) although created by the timetable change is the responsibility of the school to sort out not the responsibility of Northern.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So the train to school is slightly earlier, and the train home from school is slightly earlier.

The return train journey has also been changed, to a slightly earlier time, which would mean pupils leaving school on time will be forced to wait for the later one and get back to Barrow for 5.30pm.

If only there was some way of perhaps starting the school day earlier and finishing it earlier, eh?

 

[bearhugger]

I find TOCs usually to be pretty switched on to trying to satisfy bespoke local flows (e.g. schools), especially on "rural" or secondary lines; normally because it's worth their bother as it can be a significant source of revenue for that line that is otherwise lost.

Indeed. My local line takes kids to & from school at Whitby, and it can be a significant source of revenue during the winter months (and often the only way kids can get to school in times of snow / ice). During strike days these two services a day are run too.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If only there was some way of perhaps starting the school day earlier and finishing it earlier, eh?

Seriously? So you think society should adjust for the convenience of the railway and it isn't the role of public transport to transport the public at the times they need to use it?

 

[Tetchytyke]

My local line takes kids to & from school at Whitby, and it can be a significant source of revenue during the winter months

NYCC still pay for it don't they? I thought that was why the train had to have a minimum seating capacity, previously 3-car 144s but changing to 156s when they were refurbished (and the capacity cut).

So you think society should adjust for the convenience of the railway and it isn't the role of public transport to transport the public at the times they need to use it?

The timetable is changing because of changes in Manchester, to accommodate more trains through the new Ordsall Chord. It's not happening because Northern are bored and fancy a laugh.

The afternoon train could, of course, wait for 39 minutes at Ulverston for the schoolkids, but I'm not sure that's entirely the best use of resources.

In this case, yes, it's tough. Change the school day if such a long day is inconvenient to most of your pupils.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seriously? So you think society should adjust for the convenience of the railway and it isn't the role of public transport to transport the public at the times they need to use it?

When the primary role of the public transport is longer-distance journeys, yes. School journeys may well be best handled by hiring in a couple of dedicated coaches, which can run at precisely the desired times.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The timetable is changing because of changes in Manchester, to accommodate more trains through the new Ordsall Chord. It's not happening because Northern are bored and fancy a laugh.

The afternoon train could, of course, wait for 39 minutes at Ulverston for the schoolkids, but I'm not sure that's entirely the best use of resources.

In this case, yes, it's tough. Change the school day if such a long day is inconvenient to most of your pupils.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Manchester. Neither of the services currently go anywhere near there and they don’t in the new timetable either so they certainly aren't fitting in with other services using the Ordsall Chord.

 

[bearhugger]

NYCC still pay for it don't they? I thought that was why the train had to have a minimum seating capacity, previously 3-car 144s but changing to 156s when they were refurbished (and the capacity cut).

TBH, I wasn't aware that NYCC paid for the service, and thinking back to when i have been on the services with the kids on, I'm struggling to recall seeing a kid with a ticket or the guard checking their tickets. What you say makes a lot of sense thinking about it.

 

[theironroad]

The only thing I wouldn't encourage is telling regular train passengers to get the bus instead. They might just get used to it!

Sure there are times occasionally when rail passengers may want or have to catch a bus, but rail should always aim to attract and accommodate passengers, especially in rural areas.

 

[221129]

It has absolutely nothing to do with Manchester. Neither of the services currently go anywhere near there and they don’t in the new timetable either so they certainly aren't fitting in with other services using the Ordsall Chord.

That clearly shows how little you actually know on the subject.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It has absolutely nothing to do with Manchester. Neither of the services currently go anywhere near there and they don’t in the new timetable either so they certainly aren't fitting in with other services using the Ordsall Chord.

Which goes to show how limited your understanding of the timetable changes is. The changes in Manchester are having many and far-reaching consequences, including the reduction of through trains from Manchester to Barrow in Furness. It's impacting across most of the north of England.

What you say makes a lot of sense thinking about it.

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but my understanding is that the council pay for train travel as the statutory school transport because of how unsuitable the local roads are for buses.

School journeys may well be best handled by hiring in a couple of dedicated coaches, which can run at precisely the desired times.

Well, quite.

 

[mpthomson]

Did you actually read what I posted?

No need for anyone to lengthen anything - just open 10 minutes earlier and close 10 minutes earlier. It's somewhat de-minimis.

Of course I read it. It still requires consultation as it's a change in working practices. Been there, done it when we altered shift times by 30 mins in another public sector organisation.

In addition there are the rest of Chris M's points.

 

[headshot119]

It has absolutely nothing to do with Manchester. Neither of the services currently go anywhere near there and they don’t in the new timetable either so they certainly aren't fitting in with other services using the Ordsall Chord.

You surely can't be that naive?

 

[Steve Harris]

Of course I read it. It still requires consultation as it's a change in working practices. Been there, done it when we altered shift times by 30 mins in another public sector organisation.

In addition there are the rest of Chris M's points.

Hmmmm. Did you know that working conditions can be changed without consultation.

You just have to give the workforce the statuary 3 months notice !!

Doesn't do much for moral though !

 

[tbtc]

don't these kids realise that the Railway should run for the convenience of the Railway?

I think that some people on this thread have obviously had little experience of schools over the past twenty/ thirty years.

They didn't have to worry about things like "safeguarding" back then, there weren't the same amount of forms to complete, you could leave kids unattended. Maybe it "never did me any harm", but the world has moved on.

Nowadays, it's not that simple. You can't have large numbers of unsupervised kids on school property for long periods. And it's not as easy as just asking the Janitor to open the gates half an hour earlier each morning/ later each night.

I don't claim any knowledge of this Barrow issue - maybe the plight of these kids is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things - maybe the "dog" of Manchester is more important than the "tail" of passengers affected at rural extremes - you can't satisfy everyone - maybe there's no way to solve this problem (given the fixed paths from Manchester Airport to Deansgate which have a knock-on effect on various branchlines).

But I do resent the idea that the school should "simply" change the school day/ staff rotas/ classes in the middle of term just because that's the date that the railways change - as well as hiring buses at relatively short notice and the various other obstacles that @Llanigraham and @Chris M have listed - things aren't as simplistic as some of the people on this thread would like them to be.

 

[bb21]

Hiring buses is a far simpler solution than either continuing with the war of words, or changing the school day, with its own advantages of being able to do local pick-ups in Barrow. If needed be, they can be drafted in from further afield for a short period of time.

No, it won't be a perfect solution, but where is the perfect solution? Bickering is not a solution.

 

[Deafdoggie]

My sons school recently changed their hours, to considerable opposition! Basically they wanted a change to the hours, had a consultation, which changed nothing, and did it anyway! These days, academies can pretty much do as they want. But even for a LEA school, altering the school hours is a very simple thing to do. Although they generally prefer to do it at school term dates rather than train timetable change dates!

Whilst most parents complained and objected, it made no difference. But it made it better for us for catching the bus! I don't think you can never change bus or train timetables simply because of a school.