S&D revived

[willc789]

A true fantasy/speculation thread so all answers welcome...

A long journey through the west country the other day got me thinking, what if the S&D was still open for business? If so, what state would it be in? Single/double lines? Services? Stock? Would it be earning its keep?

My thoughts would be a mixture of single and double track to enable an hourly between serivce Bristol and Bournemouth along with cross country serivces from bristol through to bournemouth acting as a fast service. In theory it would act as a useful freight route from southampton and aggregate as well as an important diversionary route for the GW if the Bristol-Taunton section was blockaded (providing the spur at templecombe is still in place)

Stock wise I'd think something along the lines of the 185's would be perfect given the gradients and numberous stops along the line. Freight wise, would the inclines put a dampner on the possibilities of operations?

As I said earlier, its only a dream but try and keep the answers sensible(ish!!)

 

[Helvellyn]

If it was still open I suspect it would be operated with either 150/2s or 153s.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I would second that about the 150's. I expect the expresses would have been diverted away, and the double track sections singled (with some passing loops retained) and the line would have a infrequent (possibly 2 hourly) but generally well used service between Bournemouth (formerly Central) and Bristol.

 

[Mvann]

I would have thought, to a certain extent, it would depend on who the toc was for the route.

 

[John55]

Yes, I would second that about the 150's. I expect the expresses would have been diverted away, and the double track sections singled (with some passing loops retained) and the line would have a infrequent (possibly 2 hourly) but generally well used service between Bournemouth (formerly Central) and Bristol.

Would you expect both or either of the Weymouth - Bristol and Southampton - Bristol services to have survived if the S&D was open?

 

[yorksrob]

Would you expect both or either of the Weymouth - Bristol and Southampton - Bristol services to have survived if the S&D was open?

I would have expected one of them to have survived mainly as a link for local settlements (along the lines of the East Suffolk) and the other to have had a more regional role. As to which one might be which I wouldn't like to guess.

 

[bnm]

One of the major problems, now, as then, would be the up hill and down dale nature of the S&D from Bath to Bournemouth. As well as the headache of reversing in and out of Bath Green Park.

That would put the kybosh on any freight aspirations and long distance cross-country passenger services would likely be no quicker to Bournemouth over the S&D than they are currently via Banbury and Reading.

A local service operated by DMUs may be viable for parts of the route (connecting to existing lines at Templecombe and Frome?) but I suspect that would only be possible with subsidy. The costs involved in rebuilding the line over it's historic route would be astronomical. In this age of cost/benefit ratio analysis the CBR figures would be well into the negative. The route never did serve large population centres and today only places like Radstock, Midsomer Norton, Shepton Mallet and Wincanton could support intermediate traffic.

Radstock and Midsomer Norton would be better served by reconnecting to Frome and the West of England Main Line. Too much development on the trackbed in the intervening years means Shepton Mallet and Wincanton are, I fear, lost forever to the rail network. Wells and Glastonbury/Street would be better served by reconnection over the original Somerset Central route to Highbridge.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, the operational difficulties of the S&D undoubtedly made it a more attractive option for closure. I doubt that, in the 1960's it would have been thought necessary to have three routes from Bristol to Hampshire and Dorset. Only through traffic seems to have been considered, at least in terms of faster trains between hubs. Local communities were expected to take the bus or have cars!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Either way, having the line still there would have made my placement year a hell of a lot easier! (Living in Shepton Mallet for year, without having a car, isn't exactly the best thing ever!).
And it would be nice to see Bath Green Park in its former glory.

 

[yorksrob]

One of the major problems, now, as then, would be the up hill and down dale nature of the S&D from Bath to Bournemouth. As well as the headache of reversing in and out of Bath Green Park.

That would put the kybosh on any freight aspirations and long distance cross-country passenger services would likely be no quicker to Bournemouth over the S&D than they are currently via Banbury and Reading.

A local service operated by DMUs may be viable for parts of the route (connecting to existing lines at Templecombe and Frome?) but I suspect that would only be possible with subsidy. The costs involved in rebuilding the line over it's historic route would be astronomical. In this age of cost/benefit ratio analysis the CBR figures would be well into the negative. The route never did serve large population centres and today only places like Radstock, Midsomer Norton, Shepton Mallet and Wincanton could support intermediate traffic.

Radstock and Midsomer Norton would be better served by reconnecting to Frome and the West of England Main Line. Too much development on the trackbed in the intervening years means Shepton Mallet and Wincanton are, I fear, lost forever to the rail network. Wells and Glastonbury/Street would be better served by reconnection over the original Somerset Central route to Highbridge.

Whilst rebuilding the thing would be unlikely today, it does seem to me that the route passes through more reasonably sized population centres than many surviving (and busy) routes today and that had it been kept as a local route, it would be thriving today. I would also suspect that the primary market for somewhere like shepton mallet would be local destinations such as bath and bristol rather than london.

 

[chris89]

Either way, having the line still there would have made my placement year a hell of a lot easier! (Living in Shepton Mallet for year, without having a car, isn't exactly the best thing ever!).
And it would be nice to see Bath Green Park in its former glory.

Would have made travelling in the whole area a lot easier.

Completely off topic. How is the Shepton Mallet last time was their (04) it was dieing a slow death, Especially the town center when that Tesco open.

Chris

 

[RPM]

Well this lot http://www.somersetanddorsetrailway.co.uk/ seem to think it it viable to reopen the whole line. Absolutely barking in my opinion.

 

[Morgsie]

In some areas the land has been redeveloped: Bath, Poole etc. The route has a whole is unviable, look at which areas can be connected on a case by case basis

 

[Pen Mill]

In some areas the land has been redeveloped: Bath, Poole etc. The route has a whole is unviable, look at which areas can be connected on a case by case basis

We all love to reminisce but my view is that this is overklill on a grand scale.
A route exists between Bath & Bournemouth which is about 17 miles longer than the S&D main trunk was which was 72 miles.

So rebuild 72 miles of railway with many breaks in the original route to save 17 miles ? Not my idea of a sound economic proposal.

What convinces me that it's a non-runner is that there isn't a service between the 2 towns currently even though the route exists.

Sorry , I don't have the nostalgia connected with this line but it seems a few bridges too far to me.

 

[reb0118]

And here's me thinking the S&D is the former Stirling & Dunfermline Section of the NBR.

 

[Kali]

Bath Spa - around to Midford on the old North Somerset line - down the S&D to the Radstock/MS-Norton area ... and to Frome down the other bit of the North Somerset - which is sort-of still there under the weeds - if there's any utility in it, perhaps ( what utility? ). Maybe the south end round Wimbourne and up to Blandford too.

But the bits in-between? it doesn't really go anywhere that'd pay, does it? if you can make a case for that, there's rather a lot of Devon I would like a case made for...

 

[yorksrob]

Bath Spa - around to Midford on the old North Somerset line - down the S&D to the Radstock/MS-Norton area ... and to Frome down the other bit of the North Somerset - which is sort-of still there under the weeds - if there's any utility in it, perhaps ( what utility? ). Maybe the south end round Wimbourne and up to Blandford too.

But the bits in-between? it doesn't really go anywhere that'd pay, does it? if you can make a case for that, there's rather a lot of Devon I would like a case made for...

Er, but what do you mean by anywhere that'd pay ?

Are you sure that the bits in Devon you agree with would pay ?

I'm not expecting the S&D to arrive anytime soon, but there's a lot of current railway that doesn't 'pay'

 

[Kali]

No, I don't think there's a case for much of the old Devon network ( not yet at least ) - that was rather what I was saying about the rest of the S&D...

"Pay" - be worth the commercial effort. The bit over the Mendips would be a lovely tourist ride.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Would have made travelling in the whole area a lot easier.

Completely off topic. How is the Shepton Mallet last time was their (04) it was dieing a slow death, Especially the town center when that Tesco open.

Chris

Its been just over a year since I left there now, but when I left it was pretty much as you say. Not much happening at all, and a lot of empty shops and buildings in the town centre.

 

[pitdiver]

I'd go along with what WelshBluebird says about Shepton Mallet. we were there about 1 month ago. The town centre is dead mostly charity shops now. I can imagine it was once a thriving country town with a busy "High Street" shopping centre.

 

[willc789]

I live around 10 mins from Shepton Mallet and tend to give it a wide berth when I can. The only draw is the large tesco and other shops at the retail park which as others have said, has destroyed to old high street. Kilver Court at the north end of town seems to be drawing in the crowds has aims to emulate the likes of Bicester in terms of a shopping destination.

 

[Greenback]

Well this lot http://www.somersetanddorsetrailway.co.uk/ seem to think it it viable to reopen the whole line. Absolutely barking in my opinion.

I think we may have discussed this on the forum previously, and reached a very similar conclusion!

We all love to reminisce but my view is that this is overklill on a grand scale.
A route exists between Bath & Bournemouth which is about 17 miles longer than the S&D main trunk was which was 72 miles.

So rebuild 72 miles of railway with many breaks in the original route to save 17 miles ? Not my idea of a sound economic proposal.

What convinces me that it's a non-runner is that there isn't a service between the 2 towns currently even though the route exists.

Sorry , I don't have the nostalgia connected with this line but it seems a few bridges too far to me.

There is a lot of nostalgia attached to this route, which, as far as I know, was never a big earner - the nostalgia is mostly attached to the Summer Saturday through trains between the north and the coast as far as I can see.

My only other point would be that we shouldn;t fall into the Beeching trap - it's not only about the traffic between the two points (Bath and Bournemouth) but also about the intermediate stations.

In my view, this is really where the reviving the S&D argument falls flat on its face. The communites concerned, witht he greatest of respect to them, will not provide sufficient custom, based on population and hinterland) to justify reinstating the route at huge expence at this moment in time.

No, I don't think there's a case for much of the old Devon network ( not yet at least ) - that was rather what I was saying about the rest of the S&D...

"Pay" - be worth the commercial effort. The bit over the Mendips would be a lovely tourist ride.

If the route had not closed, it would probably be worth paying the subsidy to connect the places along the line. But I don't think it's worth the reconstruction costs, given that it did close, the tracks were removed, and the formation built on!

 

[yorksrob]

If the route had not closed, it would probably be worth paying the subsidy to connect the places along the line. But I don't think it's worth the reconstruction costs, given that it did close, the tracks were removed, and the formation built on!

I think that hits the nail on the head for me !