Ryanair fiasco

[northwichcat]

Ryanair does not consider it to be a package in law.

If it's legally a package then nothing Ryanair put in their T&Cs can change that.

 

[FQTV]

If it's legally a package then nothing Ryanair put in their T&Cs can change that.

It's not in their Ts&Cs.

If you book a hotel (or a car) with the flight on the main website, then you have to accept both Ryanair's Ts&Cs and the other supplier's/s' separate Ts&Cs.

It's explicit that it's two or more separate contracts, and that the charges will be separate as well.

The big online travel agent that used to do this too was Travel Republic, although now that they've been taken over by DNATA, it looks as though they may have stopped.

They were notorious for reneging on parts of bookings and leaving their clients on the hook for other non-flexible components of their trip.

ABTA seem to think that Travel Republic still do sell trips this way, though, along with On The Beach:

https://abta.com/holiday-help-and-complaints/how-can-we-help-you/i-booked-a-flight-hotel-together-online-now-my-hotel-isnt-available-can-i-g

Online travel agencies such as Travel Republic and On the Beach do not sell package holidays; therefore you are in contract with the supplier of the service that you booked who will be named on your paperwork – for example the airline (if you’re flying) and the hotel, not the online travel agency.

 

[northwichcat]

My point was IF it's considered legally a package then Ryanair writing in their T&Cs that it isn't doesn't change that. If it's not considered legally a package then the T&C is clarifying the position.

Also worth noting as Ryanair aren't registered in the UK that ATOL protection doesn't apply.

 

[Jetlagged]

Thanks for the interesting input everyone. Looking at ABTA's website and their definition of a Package Holiday, I think that what Ryanair do is outside the scope of the regs unless you book one of their holidays.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's not in their Ts&Cs.

If you book a hotel (or a car) with the flight on the main website, then you have to accept both Ryanair's Ts&Cs and the other supplier's/s' separate Ts&Cs.

It's explicit that it's two or more separate contracts, and that the charges will be separate as well.

The big online travel agent that used to do this too was Travel Republic, although now that they've been taken over by DNATA, it looks as though they may have stopped.

They were notorious for reneging on parts of bookings and leaving their clients on the hook for other non-flexible components of their trip.

ABTA seem to think that Travel Republic still do sell trips this way, though, along with On The Beach:

https://abta.com/holiday-help-and-complaints/how-can-we-help-you/i-booked-a-flight-hotel-together-online-now-my-hotel-isnt-available-can-i-g

Interesting insight - how strange - and a little bit dodgy.

Thanks as always for the perspective.

 

[Hornet]

Ryanair to fly fewer aircraft this winter. Main casualties:-

http://www.independent.ie/business/...-fly-fewer-aircraft-this-winter-36174279.html

The following 34 routes are suspended from the winter season from November to March 2018:

 

[AlterEgo]

Gatwick to Belfast suspended. Wow.

 

[shredder1]

I fly into Prague by Ryanair next month for a Grumpy railtour, out there for two weeks flitting around Germany, Poland, Slovak et al, flying back from Prague too, fingers crossed, must admit though I am a Ryanair fan, hope I continue to be one

 

[fowler9]

If you use Ryanair go in to it with your eyes open. I always do and have never been let down. You get lots of people saying "They aren't always the cheapest". Well if you used them and a legacy airline would have been cheaper for your requirements then that is kind of your fault, if I can find a cheaper way of getting somewhere I always do. I don't expect all the bells and whistles etc. The holier than thou stuff about how they treat their staff badly does my head in, give us a list of all the other highstreet brands you allegedly refuse to use. A huge number of them treat their staff like poo. I wonder how many people who complain about Ryanairs treatment of their staff have an i Phone or ever have to use a call centre or buy cheap clothes.

 

[telstarbox]

Ryanair have suspended some routes until the end of 2017 entirely to resolve the pilot leave issue (mostly UK domestic routes duplicated by other carriers?)

 

[AlterEgo]

Ryanair have suspended some routes until the end of 2017 entirely to resolve the pilot leave issue (mostly UK domestic routes duplicated by other carriers?)

Not mostly UK domestic routes - there's a huge swathe of routes they've suspended.

The suspended routes are:

:: Bucharest - Palermo

:: Chania - Athens

:: Chania - Pafos

:: Chania - Thessaloniki

:: Cologne - Berlin (SXF)

:: Edinburgh - Szczecin

:: Glasgow - Las Palmas

:: Hamburg - Edinburgh

:: Hamburg - Katowice

:: Hamburg - Oslo (TRF)

:: Hamburg - Thessaloniki

:: Hamburg - Venice (TSF)

:: London (LGW) - Belfast

:: London (STN) - Edinburgh

:: London (STN) - Glasgow

:: Newcastle - Faro

:: Newcastle - Gdansk

:: Sofia - Castellon

:: Sofia - Memmingen

:: Sofia - Pisa

:: Sofia - Stockholm (NYO)

:: Sofia - Venice (TSF)

:: Thessaloniki - Bratislava

:: Thessaloniki - Paris BVA

:: Thessaloniki - Warsaw (WMI)

:: Trapani - Baden Baden

:: Trapani - Frankfurt (HHN)

:: Trapani - Genoa

:: Trapani - Krakow

:: Trapani - Parma

:: Trapani - Rome FIU

:: Trapani - Trieste

:: Wroclaw - Warsaw

:: Gdansk - Warsaw

 

[CC 72100]

It's not a long term solution (but then it shouldn't a long term problem either) - would it be possible for Ryanair yo lease aircraft and crew from such providers, or even from other operators with less demand over the winter?

Just wondering if that it theoretically possibly - that said, I have no doubt that cancelling flights as opposing to finding solutions to carry on operating is the cheap option, so that's perhaps of little surprise..

 

[Hornet]

It's not a long term solution (but then it shouldn't a long term problem either) - would it be possible for Ryanair yo lease aircraft and crew from such providers, or even from other operators with less demand over the winter?

Just wondering if that it theoretically possibly - that said, I have no doubt that cancelling flights as opposing to finding solutions to carry on operating is the cheap option, so that's perhaps of little surprise..

They have leased in aircraft from third parties before. I flew from Dublin to Leeds in July 2014 on a Ryanair flight, FR152, operated by an Air Explore Boeing 737-400, which was crewed by Ryanair cabin crew. It was a pretty tatty specimen. At the time there was a shortage of Ryanair B737-800 aircraft.

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/210997/om-cex-air-explore-boeing-737-400/

 

[atillathehunn]

It's not a long term solution (but then it shouldn't a long term problem either) - would it be possible for Ryanair yo lease aircraft and crew from such providers, or even from other operators with less demand over the winter?

Just wondering if that it theoretically possibly - that said, I have no doubt that cancelling flights as opposing to finding solutions to carry on operating is the cheap option, so that's perhaps of little surprise..

I believe they have in the past leased to give extra capacity for the summer in particular.

However, I doubt anyone has the capacity right now to give them the planes they need!

 

[F Great Eastern]

They have leased in aircraft from third parties before. I flew from Dublin to Leeds in July 2014 on a Ryanair flight, FR152, operated by an Air Explore Boeing 737-400, which was crewed by Ryanair cabin crew. It was a pretty tatty specimen. At the time there was a shortage of Ryanair B737-800 aircraft.

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/210997/om-cex-air-explore-boeing-737-400/

They've used AIr Explore for 2014/2015/2016, first year was 2014 and they used fairly tatty quite old 737 Classics as it was fairly last minute next couple of years they also leased from Air Explore but had newer airframes that AirExplore got on the basis of Ryanair committing to a couple more years.

They've also hired in fro Air COntractors at the past and FlyDubai.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well thats my new year buggered, doubt I'll get Edinburgh London return for 25 quid anywhere else of my given dates!

 

[FQTV]

It's not a long term solution (but then it shouldn't a long term problem either) - would it be possible for Ryanair yo lease aircraft and crew from such providers, or even from other operators with less demand over the winter?

Just wondering if that it theoretically possibly - that said, I have no doubt that cancelling flights as opposing to finding solutions to carry on operating is the cheap option, so that's perhaps of little surprise..

I have a feeling that it's more complex than this, and I'd go as far as to say that I feel the dead hand of investors here.

The airline has grown fast but not up.

Investors may be nervous and may have told Ryanair to avalanche all the bad news in one go.

Knowing that their customer base is dominated by low-yield, discretionary leisure and peripatetic labour travellers, they may consider the reputational risk comparatively low.

There'll be stories about weddings being ruined, of course, but they've weathered that kind of PR before.

A major schism like this allows them, however, to either rapidly mature, or test their theory that price trumps loyalty, or they'll find themselves a bid target.

There's precedent too; elsewhere in the world, the 'mature' no-frills carriers have repeatedly swallowed the less professional operators - witness AirTran in the States, Tigerair in Asia/Australia etc.

From an investor point of view, a pound invested with easyJet flying between Paris and Geneva, and a pound invested with Ryanair flying between Gdansk and Newcastle, will likely provide a very different return. All other costs - crew, fuel, lease etc being equal, there's perhaps not enough difference in the airport charges to tip the balance back in Ryanair's favour.

So, this may simply be the investors calling a halt to the topsy growth, and the airline testing where its future might lie.

 

[Bald Rick]

Gatwick to Belfast suspended. Wow.

And Stansted to Scotland! Easyjet and Virgin (trains) will be rubbing their hands with glee.

Huge opportunity for VT. I expect Mr Horne will be writing the adverts tonight.

 

[Richard_B]

This does not feel like the small cockup Ryanair have been spinning..

 

[daikilo]

If Ryanair has not attempted to hire in crewed aircraft (or even just the crews if that is possible) I am wondering what the authorrities view is. And I am sure the crewed aircraft are available for lease for at least some of the rotations.

 

[FQTV]

If Ryanair has not attempted to hire in crewed aircraft (or even just the crews if that is possible) I am wondering what the authorrities view is. And I am sure the crewed aircraft are available for lease for at least some of the rotations.

There are obligations to refund, reroute, compensate and care depending on the circumstances, but there is absolutely no obligation to operate.

The legal remedies are there to dissuade airlines from cancelling without good reason, not to oblige them to operate at any cost.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Wouldn't be surprised if they are using this to offload some unpopular routes without the extra bad PR of admitting low passenger figures.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wouldn't be surprised if they are using this to offload some unpopular routes without the extra bad PR of admitting low passenger figures.

I thought that, but abandoning London to Scotland seems pretty extreme!

 

[ModernRailways]

I thought that, but abandoning London to Scotland seems pretty extreme!

Cologne to Berlin too.

Could they not have got rid of some that other airlines carry and then some of there more unpopular ones? Flights that may cost more for maintenance/fuel because they're using another airlines facilities etc may come into it too?

 

[gsnedders]

I thought that, but abandoning London to Scotland seems pretty extreme!

I frequently see GLA-STN with very cheap tickets available a few days before, even compared with easyJet on the same route. They genuinely just might not be doing that well, even after the move from PIK?

 

[atillathehunn]

I have a feeling that it's more complex than this, and I'd go as far as to say that I feel the dead hand of investors here.

The airline has grown fast but not up.

Investors may be nervous and may have told Ryanair to avalanche all the bad news in one go.

Knowing that their customer base is dominated by low-yield, discretionary leisure and peripatetic labour travellers, they may consider the reputational risk comparatively low.

There'll be stories about weddings being ruined, of course, but they've weathered that kind of PR before.

A major schism like this allows them, however, to either rapidly mature, or test their theory that price trumps loyalty, or they'll find themselves a bid target.

There's precedent too; elsewhere in the world, the 'mature' no-frills carriers have repeatedly swallowed the less professional operators - witness AirTran in the States, Tigerair in Asia/Australia etc.

From an investor point of view, a pound invested with easyJet flying between Paris and Geneva, and a pound invested with Ryanair flying between Gdansk and Newcastle, will likely provide a very different return. All other costs - crew, fuel, lease etc being equal, there's perhaps not enough difference in the airport charges to tip the balance back in Ryanair's favour.

So, this may simply be the investors calling a halt to the topsy growth, and the airline testing where its future might lie.

I would agree with you here.

The question outstanding for me, though, is the route cancellation. If I were doing the above strategy I would have chopped 50% of those routes, but the other 50% I would do differently. The routes ex Chania etc make some sense.

But when you're fighting hard for London - Scotland/Ireland traffic why cut it? The routes are packed with business traffic. Perhaps they positioned themselves wrongly and didn't pick up the cream like BA, Sleasy and the trains do.

I'd be looking out for a 'Ryanair1' discount code on Virgin WC/EC and the Sleeper fairly soon...

 

[atillathehunn]

There are obligations to refund, reroute, compensate and care depending on the circumstances, but there is absolutely no obligation to operate.

The legal remedies are there to dissuade airlines from cancelling without good reason, not to oblige them to operate at any cost.

Quite. They will be declaring in advance to avoid last minute changes or cancellations which would trigger EC/261 payouts.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The UK domestic cansilations (whilst royaly screwing my own plans but thats another matter) seam very ill thought out as whilst I cannot speek for Belfast the Scotland London routes are, despite Stansted being an absolute Peter travel wise always alway full and every 6 to 12 months a flight gets added or shedules tweeked.
Further more its not just business pax and the odd pleb using them but lots of people with onward connections, many with Ryanair but other carriers too as there are lots of destinations from STN. Ditching some of the holiday flights is sensible enough but they have shot themselves in the foot here and with this mess pluss the luggage policy changes I shall not return to them no matter how many 10 quid seats they flog me.

 

[atillathehunn]

I frequently see GLA-STN with very cheap tickets available a few days before, even compared with easyJet on the same route. They genuinely just might not be doing that well, even after the move from PIK?

I was looking for tomorrow just as a vague look. All of tomorrow's Ryanair flights to Edinburgh from STN are sold out, as is Saturday. While Monday's headline fare is £28, that's in the evening, the morning flight is about £80, which is consistent with the competition.

 

[AlterEgo]

The UK domestic cansilations (whilst royaly screwing my own plans but thats another matter) seam very ill thought out as whilst I cannot speek for Belfast the Scotland London routes are, despite Stansted being an absolute Peter travel wise always alway full and every 6 to 12 months a flight gets added or shedules tweeked.
Further more its not just business pax and the odd pleb using them but lots of people with onward connections, many with Ryanair but other carriers too as there are lots of destinations from STN. Ditching some of the holiday flights is sensible enough but they have shot themselves in the foot here and with this mess pluss the luggage policy changes I shall not return to them no matter how many 10 quid seats they flog me.

I can sort of understand their logic about cutting Belfast, for example. Belfast-UK is served by Easyjet, Aer Lingus, Flybe, and BA. So, there are options for those shafted by cancellations.

Problem is, I thought UK-Ireland/NI was a very important market for Ryanair and I thought their Belfast Intl route was doing very well. Perhaps I was mistaken.