Ryanair and Easyjet

[Tetchytyke]

Yes, but if the legacy airlines didn't give free food and drink, they could charge less for the ticket, so you would save even more money over the low cost airlines.

Remind me how that's working out for Aer Lingus?

 

[tankmc]

Personally prefer EasyJet to Ryan Air but living near Cambridge Stanstead is always the easiest option for us. It always depends on how long the flight is. For a 2 hour flight i don't really care who i fly with along as I'm there on time.

Getting down to it the only difference is the staff. I have found EasyJet staff more friendly, Ryanair staff are always miserable and rude. I never buy onboard.

I travelled to Barcelona from LGW with BA last year and while the staff where great and you got a miniature the plain was so old i thought that a wing was going to fall off or something. I didn't see the price justification particularly now you have to pay to check a bag.
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Yes, but if the legacy airlines didn't give free food and drink, they could charge less for the ticket, so you would save even more money over the low cost airlines.

Lets face it the cost of a cup of tea and packet of chrisps is next to nothing and I'm sure they get the booze at a cheap price or usually nothing. I know Ryanair actually charge some brands to be sold on board as its advertising and virgin switched from Coca-cola to Pepsi because they was getting it free. Your paying for the Brand and convenience of flying to Heathrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

easyJet very much want to get into LHR. If they ever do it will be interesting to see the effect.

 

[radamfi]

Another problem with free food is that you get less choice. I normally refuse all free food on legacy airlines because I don't fancy it. With Ryanair there is more choice, although I refuse that too as I am organised enough to eat either before or after flying and you don't need to eat on the plane if the flight is only a few hours.

With Norwegian, they even charge for food on long distance Transatlantic routes. So when I went to Florida with them, I had a lot to eat before boarding so I wasn't hungry on the flight. Obviously on an overnight flight back to the UK you've had dinner so you don't need to eat and you can have breakfast when you get off the plane.

Remind me how that's working out for Aer Lingus?

Maybe the Aer Lingus fare would be even higher if they gave away their food free?

 

[WestCoast]

Maybe the Aer Lingus fare would be even higher if they gave away their food free?

Aer Lingus is a remarkable airline nowadays, probably the only airline in Europe that directly competes with Ryanair on so many of its routes and makes a healthy profit. I've always found them extremely competitive price wise against Ryanair too and they seem to undercut easyJet on Gatwick - Belfast on most dates. They are very much a hybrid between a full service and low cost airline, but it works well for them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aer Lingus is a remarkable airline nowadays, probably the only airline in Europe that directly competes with Ryanair on so many of its routes and makes a healthy profit. I've always found them extremely competitive price wise against Ryanair too and they seem to undercut easyJet on Gatwick - Belfast on most dates. They are very much a hybrid between a full service and low cost airline, but it works well for them.

Ryanair, of course, are heading that way too, with their rather improved website, not always so low fares and second piece of hand luggage allowed (a real "killer app" for business where people want a laptop bag and a trolley case)...

 

[radamfi]

Aer Lingus is a remarkable airline nowadays, probably the only airline in Europe that directly competes with Ryanair on so many of its routes and makes a healthy profit. I've always found them extremely competitive price wise against Ryanair too and they seem to undercut easyJet on Gatwick - Belfast on most dates. They are very much a hybrid between a full service and low cost airline, but it works well for them.

The implication in the post I replied to was that Aer Lingus has suffered as a result of abandoning full service on short haul, but if indeed they are making good money then that's all good.

 

[ivanhoe]

I was looking at Ryanair flights from East Midlands to Alicante next September. Also checked with Jet2 as well. In the era of cheaper aviation fuel, there are not too many bargains about as there used to be. Indeed, there is no real incentive to book now. I wonder if we are entering the next era of flying where the big Low cost airlines have captured so much of their respective markets, that it would be hard for new players to enter the market. Don't get me wrong, I remember the cost of flying to Malaga in 1997 and the fare is about the same now, so that's a real drop in price. Both Easyjet and Ryanair are stable companies with relatively new aircraft. They might not welcome increased competition but are well placed to deal with it.

 

[WestCoast]

The implication in the post I replied to was that Aer Lingus has suffered as a result of abandoning full service on short haul, but if indeed they are making good money then that's all good.

Sorry, I should have quoted the previous post.

Reading the financial reports, Aer Lingus is in pretty good shape. Their planes are certainly not empty and they've made a decent operating profit in the years after the economic crisis. However they incurred a net loss last year due to a pension deficit settlement. I think they've got a strong future in IAG alongside BA, Iberia and Vueling with a transatlantic hub in Dublin and relatively low cost structure.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The IAG takeover was widely regarded to be both hostile and undervalue. I think it will work for IAG but I don't think it was a good deal for Aer Lingus or their shareholders (the Irish taxpayer)

 

[WestCoast]

or their shareholders (the Irish taxpayer)

...was it a good deal for Ryanair though, who were an even larger shareholder?

 

[tankmc]

Aer Lingus is a remarkable airline nowadays, probably the only airline in Europe that directly competes with Ryanair on so many of its routes and makes a healthy profit. I've always found them extremely competitive price wise against Ryanair too and they seem to undercut easyJet on Gatwick - Belfast on most dates. They are very much a hybrid between a full service and low cost airline, but it works well for them.

We flew back from Orlando with Aer Lingus on a last minute booking because our virgin flights where full and it was not a great experience. The food offering was terrible and you got a cup of water. Everything else is paid for. Luckily we bought loads at the airport and took it onboard because we thought we would not get anything.

Staff where incredibly friendly but not professional at all with one member of the crew telling dirty jokes really loud with kids around and a member of the check in team declaring that everything "Has gone to ****" then giving us another pasagnhers boarding card.

They took five hours to do the meal service and left the cabin lights on the whole night flight making constant stupid announcements "The back galley is a staff area, could passengers please not use the back galley". You could tell they was on the bare minimum crew.

Oh well I can't complain they got me home and I understand are good value. I have noticed icelandair are doing really good offers to the US with a free stop over in Iceland. Would like to try them.

 

[miami]

I am organised enough to eat either before or after flying and you don't need to eat on the plane if the flight is only a few hours.

Good for you. I take it you agree with closing buffets on intercity trains too?

With Norwegian, they even charge for food on long distance Transatlantic routes. So when I went to Florida with them, I had a lot to eat before boarding so I wasn't hungry on the flight. Obviously on an overnight flight back to the UK you've had dinner so you don't need to eat and you can have breakfast when you get off the plane.

Depends on the time. I won't have eaten on an 1830 flight out of the east coast. On the other hand I will usually have done on a midnight flight. Nice to know it's available though. On the evening BA flight to Washington room service has stopped by the time I get to my hotel, so I have to eat on the plane. On the afternoon flight though I may not. It's 8 hours though, plus time at the far end (upto 3 hours with Washington) and near end (another 3 hours if you're transferring from Manchester). It's a long time without food during the day.

In europe, if you've had a morning of meetings in Berlin, arrive at the airport about 1200, straight to the plane departing 1240, then land in London at 1300 and straight off for some afternoon meetings, when exactly do you eat?

Alternatively arrive at Heathrow at 10.30, through security and straight to B45 for a 11.00 borading of the 11.30 flight to Athens, arriving 1700.

Maybe the Aer Lingus fare would be even higher if they gave away their food free?

The cost of providing the service and the fare charged are unrelated. Airlines charge each individual the maximum they can. Bob may only be willing to pay £100 for a ticket, Dave is willing to pay £150. Charge £100 each and you end up with £200 revenue. Charge £150 each and you end up with £150 revenue. Charge Bob £100 and Dave £150 and you end up with £250.

However if Dave refuses to fly your airline because you don't offer food, you'll only have £100 revenue regardless. Offer them both free food and you get £250 minus say £4 each for the food cost, or £242 revenue.
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Whoops. Does that happen often?

Quite a bit (say 1 in 20), you have to disembark from the rear steps and get bussed to A4 or A10 as appropiate.

If your plane has landed from Nice and is off to Glasgow, you'll need to land at something like A9, A10, A19 -- A1-6/7ish only allow domestic arrivals, A11 - A24 excluding A19 can't do domestic departures.

For Glasgow to Nice it's a bit better, as Nice can depart from any gate, but sometimes you get all the domestic arrival gates full.

I avoid Heathrow as much as possible now though - far cheaper to fly via Philidelphia, Helsinki and Qatar (although not all at the same time!), and in Europe the "benefit" of BA isn't worth the T5 transfer process, so it hasn't happened to me for nearly a year.

Recently travelled Manchester to Lisbon on TAP. Given that nearly all of my flights within Europe are low cost, it was something of a shock to get food and a rather large class of red wine. Ticket was cheap because it was booked 6 months in advance. Impressed with Lisbon Airport. Modern, loads of e gates for passport checks without being hassled. It was a pleasure to travel on this occasion.

Lisbon was the only european airport where either of my passports (dated 2008 and 2010) worked with e-passport. Departures wasn't great.

 

[me123]

We flew back from Orlando with Aer Lingus on a last minute booking because our virgin flights where full and it was not a great experience. The food offering was terrible and you got a cup of water. Everything else is paid for. Luckily we bought loads at the airport and took it onboard because we thought we would not get anything.

Staff where incredibly friendly but not professional at all with one member of the crew telling dirty jokes really loud with kids around and a member of the check in team declaring that everything "Has gone to ****" then giving us another pasagnhers boarding card.

They took five hours to do the meal service and left the cabin lights on the whole night flight making constant stupid announcements "The back galley is a staff area, could passengers please not use the back galley". You could tell they was on the bare minimum crew.

Oh well I can't complain they got me home and I understand are good value. I have noticed icelandair are doing really good offers to the US with a free stop over in Iceland. Would like to try them.

Interesting opinions. However, very different from my experience on EI. I've travelled transatlantic with them twice to JFK and they were excellent.

Preclearence in Dublin is awesome, and it's not unreasonable to be on the subway 30 minutes after touchdown. That alone makes them competitive. The legroom was good and the seats comfortable. The inflight entertainment was good. I found the food to be acceptable on the first trip. On the second, I paid for the upgraded pre-ordered meals which were superb and worth paying for (the look of envy on other passengers faces was priceless!). Unless it's changed dramatically, the only thing you paid for on EI was alcohol. As you've commented, I found the staff to be excellent. I've also flown on VS across to New York, and I'd say that Aer Lingus actually has the edge (in economy, anyway).

I've also flown short haul with them (well, Aer Lingus Regional) and they've been good on short haul too. If I was going to Dublin, I'd choose them over FR any day.

 

[anme]

Yes, but if the legacy airlines didn't give free food and drink, they could charge less for the ticket, so you would save even more money over the low cost airlines.

The cost to the airline of the free food and drink you get on a short haul flight is very very small indeed.

 

[radamfi]

Good for you. I take it you agree with closing buffets on intercity trains too?

Train buffets don't give their food away so I guess they continue to be provided as long as they are profitable, so there isn't the issue of non-buffet users subsidising the facility.

In europe, if you've had a morning of meetings in Berlin, arrive at the airport about 1200, straight to the plane departing 1240, then land in London at 1300 and straight off for some afternoon meetings, when exactly do you eat?

You could take a packed lunch? That's what many people who are in the office all day do. I have no problem, however, with planes giving you food as long as I don't have to pay for it.

 

[anme]

I have no problem, however, with planes giving you food as long as I don't have to pay for it.

I have a big problem with paying for other people to travel. I'm a regular business traveller, often booking at the last minute, and therefore paying fares many times what leisure travellers on the same plane, booking months in advance will pay. If I'm paying for most of their trip (which I am), the least they can do is buy me a decent meal and some free booze.

 

[radamfi]

Booking in advance at a low fare is not without risk, though. You are taking a chance that you will still be able to make the flight, otherwise you lose the money or incur high charges to change the ticket.

If I'm paying for most of their trip (which I am), the least they can do is buy me a decent meal and some free booze.

But surely in that case you have an even greater need to save money, given you are paying a lot? There's no such thing as free food and drink. Even if food is "free" on the plane, then everyone on the plane is paying for it through their ticket, including yourself. Free food on the plane for everyone means that they can only offer a very limited menu, so you are more likely to get food you like if they carry a wider range.

 

[anme]

Booking in advance at a low fare is not without risk, though. You are taking a chance that you will still be able to make the flight, otherwise you lose the money or incur high charges to change the ticket.



But surely in that case you have an even greater need to save money, given you are paying a lot? There's no such thing as free food and drink. Even if food is "free" on the plane, then everyone on the plane is paying for it through their ticket, including yourself. Free food on the plane for everyone means that they can only offer a very limited menu, so you are more likely to get food you like if they carry a wider range.

I seriously doubt the food on a short haul flight costs more than one pound per passenger. That's peanuts compared to the price that, say, Easyjet tend to charge for tickets bought a few days before the flight, and it's really peanuts compared to the total cost of a trip. What I really object to is paying maybe hundreds of pounds more than someone else on the same plane and getting nothing extra in return. At least give me some food and booze, and a nice lounge at the airport.

 

[radamfi]

I seriously doubt the food on a short haul flight costs more than one pound per passenger. That's peanuts compared to the price that, say, Easyjet tend to charge for tickets bought a few days before the flight, and it's really peanuts compared to the total cost of a trip. What I really object to is paying maybe hundreds of pounds more than someone else on the same plane and getting nothing extra in return. At least give me some food and booze, and a nice lounge at the airport.

If it didn't cost more just before departure, then there would be no point in booking in advance! Abandoning yield management would undoubtedly lead to more empty seats and probably a higher average fare. If you are booking last minute, you are probably getting one of the last few seats on the aircraft, so it needs to be more expensive, otherwise there would be no incentive for people to switch to services with more spare seats.

If "free food" only costs £1, then why would low cost airlines and even BA go to the trouble and getting the bad publicity for removing free food? It must cost more than that, not to mention the lost revenue from not selling food on board.

 

[tankmc]

If it didn't cost more just before departure, then there would be no point in booking in advance! Abandoning yield management would undoubtedly lead to more empty seats and probably a higher average fare. If you are booking last minute, you are probably getting one of the last few seats on the aircraft, so it needs to be more expensive, otherwise there would be no incentive for people to switch to services with more spare seats.

If "free food" only costs £1, then why would low cost airlines and even BA go to the trouble and getting the bad publicity for removing free food? It must cost more than that, not to mention the lost revenue from not selling food on board.

2 reasons. Weight meaning less fuel and if you have something that costs you £1 but can sell for £5 why would you give it away?

 

[anme]

If it didn't cost more just before departure, then there would be no point in booking in advance! Abandoning yield management would undoubtedly lead to more empty seats and probably a higher average fare. If you are booking last minute, you are probably getting one of the last few seats on the aircraft, so it needs to be more expensive, otherwise there would be no incentive for people to switch to services with more spare seats.

It's a business model that rips off (largely) business travellers, who subsidise those going on holiday. It may be the most profitable for the airlines, but it's bad for businesses.

If "free food" only costs £1, then why would low cost airlines and even BA go to the trouble and getting the bad publicity for removing free food? It must cost more than that, not to mention the lost revenue from not selling food on board.

Have you seen the free food on short haul flights?
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2 reasons. Weight meaning less fuel and if you have something that costs you £1 but can sell for £5 why would you give it away?

Because I am paying hundreds of pounds more than the person sitting next to me for no benefit?

 

[radamfi]

Have you seen the free food on short haul flights?

I presumed you were talking about when you always got a regular airline meal on all flights, regardless of distance. I agree, what they give you now is pointless and they might as well give you nothing. It would be better if they sold a wide range of food like on Ryanair.

 

[miami]

I presumed you were talking about when you always got a regular airline meal on all flights, regardless of distance. I agree, what they give you now is pointless and they might as well give you nothing. It would be better if they sold a wide range of food like on Ryanair.

There value in a bacon buttie on the domestic flights in the morning, and a can of beer after a long week.

It's cheaper to pass out 150 20p bags of crisps than to try to sell them.

Short haul has fallen a lot in Europe, BAs offerings no longer hold much value with reduced legroom and reduced service. The Sydney-Melbourne flight I took over the summer was 90 minutes, and brilliant. The 2-3h Cathay and Singapore flights in the region are great too - often long haul equipment operating them.
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But surely in that case you have an even greater need to save money, given you are paying a lot? There's no such thing as free food and drink. Even if food is "free" on the plane, then everyone on the plane is paying for it through their ticket, including yourself. Free food on the plane for everyone means that they can only offer a very limited menu, so you are more likely to get food you like if they carry a wider range.

That makes no sense, paying £500 or £510 for a flight to Geneva isn't going to make a difference. It's "ouch" regardless, but the value of the trip is far higher than the cost. The value of avoiding going into boots is higher than £10 for many people. When the BA lounges were condemned a couple of years ago I went to pret a few times. Right hastle compared with grabbing something from a buffet and meant 20 minutes of lost time meaning 20 minutes of work needing doing when I got home. When you spend 100 nights a year away from home and fly 150 times a year avoiding things like that is very valuable. As for choice there isn't a lot when it comes to jot good, in an evening a microwave meal is fine, the 3rd boots meal deal of the week isn't.

There is no relation to the price of a seat and the price of your ticket, regardless of the free food. Just like how a ticket from London to Lancaster is £90 and to Preston is £200.
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Train buffets don't give their food away so I guess they continue to be provided as long as they are profitable, so there isn't the issue of non-buffet users subsidising the facility.

TOCs could close the buffet, but all this would allow is them to sell a few more really cheap seats on the busiest trains.

It's like an airline that reduces seat pitch to fit 12 more seats in. They don't sell 12 more £500 tickets, they may sell 12 more £50 tickets, but only rarely. In the process they may lose 1 or 2 £500 tickets as people think "screw that I'm flying with a competitor who has a better product"

That doesn't apply to tocs, they don't care how many people are on board, they don't care that people with £100 singles £4K seasons are sitting on the floor because they have a buffet catering for the £20 leisure market. Doesn't really affect them.

You could take a packed lunch? That's what many people who are in the office all day do. I have no problem, however, with planes giving you food as long as I don't have to pay for it.

How do you make a packed lunch when you're in a hotel the night before?
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Because I am paying hundreds of pounds more than the person sitting next to me for no benefit?

I don't care what the person next to me pays, what I care about is spending £3k on a ticket and then finding myself in a middle seat when someone on a £500 ticket is in the exit row.

 

[CC 72100]

Having experienced Ryanair once, I'm happy to use them again!

On a serious note, has anyone used their 'new' cheap fare finder online? It must have changed about 6 weeks ago; the old layout was much easier to use, this new one is much more time consuming, which is less conducive to just having a browse for places to go...

 

[ivanhoe]

I have a big problem with paying for other people to travel. I'm a regular business traveller, often booking at the last minute, and therefore paying fares many times what leisure travellers on the same plane, booking months in advance will pay. If I'm paying for most of their trip (which I am), the least they can do is buy me a decent meal and some free booze.

You are NOT paying for most of their trip. This idea that Business Travellers subsidize leisure travellers is so pre low cost airline thinking. Without leisure travellers, there would not be the route network that you crave for. You have to pay top dollar because you require turn up (almost)and go travel. That is the nature of your job and your business travel budget reflects these high costs.

 

[fowler9]

You are NOT paying for most of their trip. This idea that Business Travellers subsidize leisure travellers is so pre low cost airline thinking. Without leisure travellers, there would not be the route network that you crave for. You have to pay top dollar because you require turn up (almost)and go travel. That is the nature of your job and your business travel budget reflects these high costs.

Indeed. And you could look at it another way, if business travellers are subsidising leisure travellers then why don't the airlines charge a (big) bit more all round. I would guess because they couldn't afford to fly nearly empty A320's and 738's around Europe and bigger aircraft further afield to satisfy the need of a few business travellers who want a free cooked breakfast on the plane. Lets face it, if you don't like the way the relatively free markets are giving you a service to fulfill the business needs of your company you can probably vote for a different government or use a different airline. I hasten to add I am agreeing with you Ivanhoe.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I flew to Dublin just before Christmas and I was very impressed with Ryanair. I was booked to fly Aer Lingus Regional but all their flights were cancelled due to high winds in Dublin, but Ryanair still flew. Had to book through the call centre as it was such short notice (about four hours before the flight) but still only had to pay £60 on the Friday night flight.

As for business passengers "subsidising" leisure passengers, that's simply not true; that's not how budget airlines' business model and yield management systems work. Leisure passengers are the bread and butter, business passengers are the bonus; they don't charge high fares for last minute business bookings because they have to, they do it simply because they can.

 

[Greenback]

I can understand why people who pay last minute fares might think they are subsidising those who book very early and pay much less, but I agree with the last three posters that it isn't actually the case.

 

[edwin_m]

I flew to Dublin just before Christmas and I was very impressed with Ryanair. I was booked to fly Aer Lingus Regional but all their flights were cancelled due to high winds in Dublin, but Ryanair still flew. Had to book through the call centre as it was such short notice (about four hours before the flight) but still only had to pay £60 on the Friday night flight.

As for business passengers "subsidising" leisure passengers, that's simply not true; that's not how budget airlines' business model and yield management systems work. Leisure passengers are the bread and butter, business passengers are the bonus; they don't charge high fares for last minute business bookings because they have to, they do it simply because they can.

If the flight isn't full do they ever reduce the ticket prices close to departure time?