Any news on when the Battle of Helsinki starts?
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Russia invades Ukraine
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Unfortunately, Macron exists due to flaws in the French two-phase electoral system, rather than the widespread support from the French people.
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Remind me, what happened in Stalingrad in the end?
daodao
Established Member
Russia completed their encirclement in late November 2042 and the Nazis surrendered on 2nd February 1943. It was THE decisive turning point of WW2. If the Ukrainians don't retreat now, their forces in Severodonetsk and Lysychansk could suffer the same fate.
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In other words, the Defenders successfully defended the city, and repulsed the Attackers, leading to a counterattack that was a decisive turning point?
Cloud Strife
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Not really. Ukraine left themselves an escape route, and from a strategic point of view, Severnodonetsk is simply not very important. The aim there was to draw the Russians into a trap where they'd bleed, and that's exactly what they've been doing. Meanwhile, Ukraine is making progress towards Kherson, which is of far more significance and importance.
Take a step back and look at just how much effort Russia has put into Severnodonetsk. It's a huge amount of effort for barely any progress, and meanwhile they're losing ground in the south. From a strategic point of view, losing Kherson will hurt the whole of Crimea, and we don't know exactly what the Ukrainians have in that area.
A true "tactical withdrawal", as opposed to the Russians abandoning Kyiv.
Yeah. I totally expect Severnodonestsk to fall, but Russia is paying a very heavy price for it. A classic case of losing a battle to help win the war.
Strathclyder
Established Member
Sounds like the definition of 'tactical withdrawal' to me, not the 'being drawn into a kessel' BS that was floated a few posts back. The Ukrainians didn't sleepwalk into this as certain pro-Russian members here seem to think they have, rather it's the Russians who have more or less walked right into a trap and are now paying the price for it.
I too fully expect Severnodonetsk to fall into Russia's hands in the fullness of time. However, given it's relative lack of strategic importance - especially when compared to Kherson - and the very heavy losses the Russians have sustained in trying to claim it, it'll merely be a propaganda victory back home when it inevitably does fall into Russian hands, but it's not like that little nugget of reality will bother Putin all that much. They'll spin it for all it's worth, and the kool-aid drinkers will be there, glasses and cups in hand, ready to lap it up. It'd be flat-out terrifying if it wasn't so flatly pathetic.
I have to once again wonder though, why does the phrase 'pyrrhic victory' keep ringing in my ears whenever I think of Russia's combat performance in Ukraine? It can't be for no reason surely.... /sarcasm
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birchesgreen
Established Member
Fasinating to see on the news former McDonalds have relaunched with a new Russian identity, however there is already a MaccyD knockoff in Donetsk called... DonMak 
brad465
Veteran Member
DustyBin
Established Member
This is rather amusing as well:
TwoYellas
Member
True. Reminds me of very early on in the war a russian tank had broken down in Ukraine and a civilian driving past asked the soldiers if they needed towing and then quipped he'd tow them back to Russia. The soldiers actually laughed.
A light hearted moment in the madness of war!
brad465
Veteran Member
The fall of Severnodonetsk looks relatively imminent, with all bridges to it destroyed, cutting off Ukrainian supply lines:
www.bbc.co.uk
Ukraine war: Every bridge leading to key city Severodonetsk destroyed
Severodonetsk is now effectively cut off from the rest of the country, the local governor says.
www.bbc.co.uk
All bridges to the embattled Ukrainian city of Severodonetsk have now been destroyed, the local governor says.
With the city effectively cut off, Serhiy Haidai says delivering supplies and evacuating civilians are now impossible.
Fierce fighting is taking place in the eastern city where Ukrainian officials said Russian artillery had driven its forces out of the centre.
For weeks capturing Severodonetsk has been a top military goal for Russia.
Taking Severodonetsk and the nearby city of Lysychansk would give Moscow control of the entire Luhansk region, much of which is already controlled by Russian-backed separatists.
All three bridges into Severodonetsk were destroyed, Mr Haidai posted on Telegram. Those remaining in the city were being forced to survive in "extremely difficult conditions", he added.
Former British soldier Jordan Gatley is among those to have been killed while fighting to defend the city, his family confirmed on Sunday.
President Volodomyr Zelensky described the human cost of the battle for the city as "terrifying". Ukrainian troops, he said, had been fighting Russian forces for "literally every metre".
Reports suggest that about 70% of the city is now under Russian control.
DustyBin
Established Member
The fall of Severnodonetsk looks relatively imminent, with all bridges to it destroyed, cutting off Ukrainian supply lines:
Ukraine war: Every bridge leading to key city Severodonetsk destroyed
Severodonetsk is now effectively cut off from the rest of the country, the local governor says.
I think this was always going to happen. On a positive note, the Russians have thrown everything they have at Severodonetsk and have paid an horrific price in terms of men and equipment to capture a strategically unimportant city (presuming they do actually capture it). By all accounts Lysychansk will be a much more difficult target, and it won’t be long before Western heavy weapons arrive on the front line. Whilst the capture of Severodonetsk will be a welcome good news story for Putin, in reality it’s nothing to shout about from the Russian perspective.
daodao
Established Member
Pull the other one. The Ukrainian military forces are haemorrhaging badly (as admitted by their leaders). All their forces and equipment east of the Popasna-Lyman line are now at serious risk of encirclement and thus capture/destruction. Russian forces moving south from Izyum are also close to severing road and rail communications into Slavyansk (and Kramatorsk) from the west, so it is only a matter of time before the Russians and their proxies in the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics control the whole of the Donbass region.
Sooner rather than later there needs to be a ceasefire to stop this tragedy, but don't expect the opposing forces to withdraw from territory they control.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I wonder how many numerically of the Ukrainian forces are still in the Severodonetsk area.
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DustyBin
Established Member
What has any of that got to do with the arrival of Western heavy weapons?
The Ukrainian forces will, when the time comes, tactically withdraw from Severodonetsk having made the Russians pay a heavy price for its capture. They aren’t going to become encircled as you appear to want to see happen, as they’re fully aware of the situation on the ground.
There does indeed need to be a ceasefire but both sides think it’s in their interest to continue fighting. The Ukrainians have openly stated that they won’t be in a position to mount a full scale counter attack until August, so in the meantime I expect they’ll continue to do what they’re doing. Russia meanwhile is being forced to use conscripts and T-62s so they’re not exactly in a great position are they?
Perhaps, but as we have seen, having something is not the same as keeping it.
DustyBin
Established Member
I’ve not seen any numbers to be honest, and I suspect the Ukrainians are quite happy to keep us (and more pertinently the Russians) guessing. Western intelligence services will have a good idea, but again they may not wish to share such information.
From what I have seen reported the number is going to be more than a few hundred but less than many thousands. They seemed to be using a tactic of withdrawing back to their side of the river to let the Russians advance, pounding them with artillery from the high ground, then moving back in to clean up. It does appear that the Russians - eventually - got wise to this strategy, and destroyed the bridge before the Ukrainians could withdraw the majority of their force but I suspect that, even if they were captured, the net loss to Ukraine won't be as great as what they've inflicted on the Russians over the last few weeks.
It's also worth noting that, in destroying the bridges to trap the Ukrainian forces, the Russians have also made it more difficult for themselves to advance on Lysychansk.
YorkshireBear
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China edging themselves away from neutral, agreeing further economic cooperation with Russia to combat western sanctions. It will be interesting to see how that develops because I'm sure China are clever enough not to do anything to compromise their own economic position.
brad465
Veteran Member
If the West really cares it would stop relying on China as much as it does for manufacturing and allowing Chinese firms to have stakes in key infrastructure (in the UK that includes Hinkley Point and Chinese Steel). I imagine what's going on here is something widely predicted, which is Russia becomes a vassal state to China, where I'm almost certain China would not be doing this as a selfless act.
Probably not as far as a vassal state, but yes, China will use the current situation viz the West and Russia to their advantage.
DustyBin
Established Member
I can’t help but feel Putin has taken his eye off the ball here, or has simply miscalculated (again). In many ways, China is at least as much of a threat to Russia as the West, and he’s played straight into their hands. The best he can hope for is “junior partner” status from hereon in.
On another light hearted note, Hampshire are supplying Ukraine with ...
kylemore
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A sensible view at last.
All the Ukrainians are receiving is hot air and lots of it. The latest $! Billion "package" from the US was little short of an insult and the Ukrainians know it - a drop in the ocean.
The unipolar world is dissolving before our eyes. Eurasia's day has come.
gabrielhj07
Established Member
Not helped of course by the US funding both sides of this war.
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DustyBin
Established Member
You really are completely deluded if you think Russia is going to come out of this in a position of any kind of strength. They will most likely make territorial gains, that has been my view since day one as much as I don’t like it, but even Putin will know that it wasn’t worth the price paid.
Also, could you clarify what exactly you mean when you say “Eurasia’s day has come”? By Eurasia I presume you mean the Eurasian Economic Union? It’s interesting that no member state, outwith the two aggressors, supported the war in any UN vote……
TwoYellas
Member
My view on Putin's aggression is that he's a war criminal and should be put on trial; along with all others who have participated in illegally invading sovereign countries and caused death, destruction and human exoduses. Even if those leaders did do some good things on the domestic front; that's not much good to the hundreds of thousands, if not millions that have suffered in other regions (even Adolf did good things domestically; an extreme example, but the point stands). Wouldn't it be great if war criminals were actually prosecuted to the Nuremberg standards.
I take the Chomskyan view of not having too much time for people who are completely outraged when a enemy state commits war crimes but seek to excuse crimes that their own state engages in. As there is more you can do to prevent war crimes caused by the country you are a part of than somewhere else. It's pure hypocrisy!
Kudos to the peace movements in Russia, here and globally, now as in the past they are usually condemned by the powers that be, as are people that have consistently condemned autocrats like Putin, when it wasn't fashionable to do so; whilst their governments have rolled out the red carpet.
The sooner a diplomatic solution to this war the better and the less risk of more suffering and potential escalation to something more terminal.
I take the Chomskyan view of not having too much time for people who are completely outraged when a enemy state commits war crimes but seek to excuse crimes that their own state engages in. As there is more you can do to prevent war crimes caused by the country you are a part of than somewhere else. It's pure hypocrisy!
Kudos to the peace movements in Russia, here and globally, now as in the past they are usually condemned by the powers that be, as are people that have consistently condemned autocrats like Putin, when it wasn't fashionable to do so; whilst their governments have rolled out the red carpet.
The sooner a diplomatic solution to this war the better and the less risk of more suffering and potential escalation to something more terminal.