Russia invades Ukraine

[John Luxton]

Or instead use the opportunity to rebuild Western economies without such a reliance on an unstable enemy power.

We have to ask ourselves did we not help create the situation we find ourselves in with regards to Putin. There is a programme on BBC iPlayer which was made around 2018 and it is clear we could have made better relations with Russia. But welcoming all those former Warsaw pact countries so quickly into NATO and the EU only gave him the opportunity to become what he has ultimately become. We have to stop thinking of Russia as an enemy. That ended with the fall of the Soviet Union we need to go forwards and try and build bridges.

Russia needs the west as much as we need Russia.

Despite everything that has happened in the past month the situation needs defusing.

 

[yorksrob]

We have to ask ourselves did we not help create the situation we find ourselves in with regards to Putin. There is a programme on BBC iPlayer which was made around 2018 and it is clear we could have made better relations with Russia. But welcoming all those former Warsaw pact countries so quickly into NATO and the EU only gave him the opportunity to become what he has ultimately become. We have to stop thinking of Russia as an enemy. That ended with the fall of the Soviet Union we need to go forwards and try and build bridges.

Russia needs the west as much as we need Russia.

Despite everything that has happened in the past month the situation needs defusing.

Sentimental nonsense.

Russia has had carte blanche to freely trade and engage with the West throughout the last thirty years. It has consistently used that position to undermine Western values.

It's time the West stood up for itself.

 

[Yew]

Sentimental nonsense.

Russia has had carte blanche to freely trade and engage with the West throughout the last thirty years. It has consistently used that position to undermine Western values.

It's time the West stood up for itself.

Could you provide some examples?

 

[John Luxton]

Sentimental nonsense.

Russia has had carte blanche to freely trade and engage with the West throughout the last thirty years. It has consistently used that position to undermine Western values.

It's time the West stood up for itself.

I disagree.

We had plenty of opportunity to build bridges following the collapse of the Iron Curtain and we should have seized the chance however we blew it.

We also fail to accept that we seem to have this thinking that we should impose western values on other nations and cultures around the world.

Russia has always preferred a "strong man" leader be it a Czar or other authoritarian leader.

When I look at some of our leaders I really do wonder who has the better leaders?

I have only recently started watching the news again after taking a two year break as I was fed up of all the Covid coverage and being fed a load of pro restriction propaganda. However, watching Biden's performance the other evening left me feeling if he is the leader of the so called free world God help us all!

As some commentators have pointed out the Ukrainian conflict would have been less likely if Trump had remained president. There was obviously a mutual respect between Trump and Putin.

 

[deltic]

We have to ask ourselves did we not help create the situation we find ourselves in with regards to Putin. There is a programme on BBC iPlayer which was made around 2018 and it is clear we could have made better relations with Russia. But welcoming all those former Warsaw pact countries so quickly into NATO and the EU only gave him the opportunity to become what he has ultimately become. We have to stop thinking of Russia as an enemy. That ended with the fall of the Soviet Union we need to go forwards and try and build bridges.

Russia needs the west as much as we need Russia.

Despite everything that has happened in the past month the situation needs defusing.

Why did all those countries want to join Nato and the EU in the first place? Putin has made clear that the collapse of the USSR and Russian dominance was from his perspective a massive defeat and he has steadily being trying to restore Russia's empire ever since.

 

[TheEdge]

We had plenty of opportunity to build bridges following the collapse of the Iron Curtain and we should have seized the chance however we blew it.

And we did, and most of the nations behind the Iron Curtain emerged blinking into the 1990s and moved on. How many countries of the Warsaw Pact and ex-SSRs have joined the EU or NATO since and become fully functional democratic modern nations? Its only one particular hold out that chosen to stay resolutely in the Cold War mentality.

 

[John Luxton]

Why did all those countries want to join Nato and the EU in the first place? Putin has made clear that the collapse of the USSR and Russian dominance was from his perspective a massive defeat and he has steadily being trying to restore Russia's empire ever since.

If we think Putin is such bad guy is the West Much better? I found a graphic the other day which sums things up well. People in glass houses perhaps should not throw stones?

 

[deltic]

If we think Putin is such bad guy is the West Much better? I found a graphic the other day which sums things up well. People in glass houses perhaps should not throw stones?

I dont support American military interventions either but we are discussing Putin's invasion here and not any action by the US

 

[jon0844]

Can't help thinking that Biden's reported remarks today of "For God's sake this man cannot remain in power" are simultaneously completely true and also a really stupid thing for a President to say out loud.

It was a bit naive, as it clearly gave loads of propaganda material for the enemy.

And by enemy, I mean the likes of Nigel Farage and Donald Trump...

 

[TheEdge]

If we think Putin is such bad guy is the West Much better? I found a graphic the other day which sums things up well. People in glass houses perhaps should not throw stones?

Fact check time.

Done a quick trawl of reliable sources and I've managed to count just over 340,000 civilian deaths between Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Yugoslavia, Libya, which I'd say are the main US involved actions in those three presidencies. Where are the other 10.7 million bodies?

 

[LOL The Irony]

I dont support American military interventions either but we are discussing Putin's invasion here and not any action by the US

Exactly. Why is there all this "you like green so you must hate red" twitter style crap going on?

 

[AlterEgo]

I read with total amazement that Liz Truss says sanctions can be lifted for Russia after total withdrawal from Ukraine and a promise not to be aggressive again. She has to be joking. Who on earth in their proper mind would trust Putin and his buddies over anything? Hard as it is on the normal Russian resident, the sanctions must stay and then it is up to the population to sort it out for themselves. It may take a bloody civil war to get this regime out, but it seems the only way to pull Russia back from isolation.

So we’re on to fostering a bloody civil war then. Is this a good idea?

 

[yorksrob]

Could you provide some examples?

The cyber attacks, the poisonings, the invasions of neighbours, the interference in elections etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2022 ==

So we’re on to fostering a bloody civil war then. Is this a good idea?

It's up to Russia to sort itself out. The West isn't the world's wet nurse.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Can't help thinking that Biden's reported remarks today of "For God's sake this man cannot remain in power" are simultaneously completely true and also a really stupid thing for a President to say out loud.

It was a bit silly for him to say that, but my problem with it isn't him saying it, but the back peddling by his staffers and handlers. Like why? You said it, bloody own it. This type of namby pamby behaviour is exactly why Putin invaded Ukraine. Our leaders are too weak to properly do anything. Vlad may have screwed up the invasion, but he at least struck at the right moment.

It was a bit naive, as it clearly gave loads of propaganda material for the enemy.

And by enemy, I mean the likes of Nigel Farage and Donald Trump...

Give over and get a grip.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If we think Putin is such bad guy is the West Much better? I found a graphic the other day which sums things up well. People in glass houses perhaps should not throw stones?

That and the graphic you displayed is utter rubbish. The graphic contains outright lies: 11 million civilians have not been killed, even accidentally, by American forces, over the last 23 years. And I'm pretty sure America has not invaded 9 countries in that time. I can count 2 - Iraq and Afghanistan, and a couple of others where there has been military action but not an invasion (Libya for example). Do you not bother doing any fact-checking before you share stuff?

Also, Russia's actions in Ukraine (and Syria and other countries) are incomparably different to anything the America has done recently. Russia has invaded a democratic country that has caused it no harm, and is deliberately killing and abducting civilians, seeking to strike terror into a population that clearly does not want Russia there, for no apparent reason other than as some kind of imperialistic land-grab by Putin.

On the other hand, America invaded one country (Afghanistan) in response to a direct attack on America by forces hosted by the then-governing Taliban, and another (Iraq) twice [*] - the first occasion being in response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, and Kuwait's appeals for help. By all accounts, on all occasions, the aim was to remove/constrain a despot, American forces sought to avoid civilian casualties, and made arrangements for the populations of those countries to elect their own Governments. Not at all the same thing.

[*] although the first time was a lot more than 23 years ago. I suspect graphic you're sharing was created at least about 10 years ago, and so is way out of date. The claims in it are still outright lies though, even if you're working on about 2010 as a baseline.

 

[jon0844]

It was a bit silly for him to say that, but my problem with it isn't him saying it, but the back peddling by his staffers and handlers. Like why? You said it, bloody own it. This type of namby pamby behaviour is exactly why Putin invaded Ukraine. Our leaders are too weak to properly do anything. Vlad may have screwed up the invasion, but he at least struck at the right moment.

Give over and get a grip.

Get a grip? These people are supportive of Putin, most likely because amongst other things he's a (white) nationalist who shares their opinions on things like race, gender and sexuality.

For Farage to come out and say Biden is the most dangerous person speaks volumes. Meanwhile, you have a large percentage of Republicans and the likes of Tucker Carlson doing the same work in the USA.

Biden was a bit silly to say something that can so easily be twisted. Heck, these days you have to be careful the words you use for fear of them being edited/trimmed to be taken out of context. That doesn't mean I don't fully support Biden, and actually agree with what he said.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What shall we do? Interfere in elections? Sponsor uprisings or terrorism? Assassination?

Putin is not the only problem with Russia. You will just get another macho strongman you won’t like.

Oh sure, my post was intended more as a statement of principle than as a plan for some specific action. Right now I have no idea what we can usefully do to facilitate Putin's removal, but I would stand by the point that, as long as he is in power, basically no-one is safe. He's not by any reasonable moral argument a legitimate leader (he's only in power thanks to vote-rigging/etc.) - he's basically a criminal gangster who's managed to get incredible power - with an army, effective control over a country, and, regrettably, chemical and nuclear weapons at his disposal. He clearly has no interest in governing in the interest of the Russian population, and is also clearly prepared to cause untold suffering in order to secure more power for himself. And as a moral imperative, if it is possible to find some way to remove him and his regime from power, then it needs to be done, for the security of - certainly Europe, and arguably most of the World too. But as you rightly point out, at the moment, we don't seem to have any practical way of doing that

 

[hst43102]

If we think Putin is such bad guy is the West Much better?

Remind me when "the West" has:

- Deliberately targeted sites such as hospitals and schools
- Laid siege to a large city and attacked civilians trying to escape
- Shelled a nuclear power station
- Targeted residential tower blocks with guided missiles
- Forcibly deported people from their country
- Threatened nuclear annihilation to a group of countries trying to join a defensive alliance.

 

[philosopher]

Oh sure, my post was intended more as a statement of principle than as a plan for some specific action. Right now I have no idea what we can usefully do to facilitate Putin's removal, but I would stand by the point that, as long as he is in power, basically no-one is safe. He's not by any reasonable moral argument a legitimate leader (he's only in power thanks to vote-rigging/etc.) - he's basically a criminal gangster who's managed to get incredible power - with an army, effective control over a country, and, regrettably, chemical and nuclear weapons at his disposal. He clearly has no interest in governing in the interest of the Russian population, and is also clearly prepared to cause untold suffering in order to secure more power for himself. And as a moral imperative, if it is possible to find some way to remove him and his regime from power, then it needs to be done, for the security of - certainly Europe, and arguably most of the World too. But as you rightly point out, at the moment, we don't seem to have any practical way of doing that

Realistically all we can do is hope the Russians remove Putin themselves. The support we are providing to Ukraine which makes Russia’s defeat in Ukraine more likely plus the sanctions may make that situation more likely, however the goal of such support and sanctions should not be regime change.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Biden’s comment last night seems to have not helped matters at all. The Guardian’s Live Feed has said that Nadhim Zahawi, the education minister has distanced the UK government from Biden’s comments insinuating a Regime Change:

Nadhim Zahawi, the education secretary, said it was “for the Russian people to decide how they are governed” after the unscripted remark from the US president during a speech in Poland, which the White House later said was not a call for regime change.

“I think that’s up to the Russian people,” he told Sky’s Sophy Ridge on Sunday. “The Russian people, I think, are pretty fed up with what is happening in Ukraine, this illegal invasion, the destruction of their own livelihoods, their economy is collapsing around them and I think the Russian people will decide the fate of Putin and his cronies.”

Emmanuel Macron appears to have also distanced the French government from the calls too.

French president Emmanuel Macron has distanced himself from comments made by the US president Joe Biden about Russia’s Vladimir Putin.

In a speech in Warsaw, Poland, last night, Biden said Putin is a “butcher” and said “this man cannot remain in power”. However, the White House later clarified that the US was not calling for regime change.

Macron told broadcaster France 3: “I would not use those words.”

He added that “everything must be done to stop the situation from escalating” if there is to be any hope of stopping Russia’s war in Ukraine.

Macron also told France 3 he saw his task as “achieving first a ceasefire and then the total withdrawal of [Russian] troops by diplomatic means. If we want to do that, we can’t escalate either in words or actions.

A very embarrassing slip up from Biden it seems.

 

[Cloud Strife]

But welcoming all those former Warsaw pact countries so quickly into NATO and the EU only gave him the opportunity to become what he has ultimately become. We have to stop thinking of Russia as an enemy. That ended with the fall of the Soviet Union we need to go forwards and try and build bridges.

I can tell you that people in Poland and in neighbouring countries (with the exception of brainwashed rural Hungary and Eastern Slovakia) are very, very much in favour of NATO and the EU. It was - correctly - perceived as the only way to counter Russian aggression, and people here openly knew that it was a matter of when, not if, Russia attacks.

Appeasing Russia has never worked historically, so why would it work now? The only real long term option is to dismember Russia and divide it into three or four new states, centred around Moscow, St Petersburg, Siberia and perhaps a slew of new unstable states in the south that can be perpetually at war with each other.

Putin isn't the cause of all this, it's the Russian mentality to blame.

However, the West is also making a hugely dangerous move by not paying too much attention to Hungary. If Orban wins in a week, then Orban may very well end up pulling Hungary out of NATO and the EU and into the hands of Russia.

 

[Annetts key]

I personally don’t think Biden’s comment on Putin makes any significant difference. Diplomatically, it may have made things a little bit more awkward, but he only said what most of the western leaders and likely a majority of western citizens think.

Putin is a dangerous man, and the whole world including Russia would be far better off if he no longer held power. The man is a murder, a psychopath and a war criminal. It is almost certain that he has appropriated Russian government money for him and his family. He has repeatedly changed the law in Russia so that he can rule for as long as he likes. He ensures that the elections in Russia are always rigged in his favour. He snuffs out independent and free media and eliminates competition to him.

Putin already hates the west, he already knows we want him gone. So Biden being frank about him is not really going to be news to him.

 

[Cowley]

I personally don’t think Biden’s comment on Putin make any significant difference. Diplomatically, it may have made things a little bit more awkward, but he only said what most of the western leaders and likely a majority of western citizens think.

Putin is a dangerous man, and the whole world including Russia would be far better off if he no longer held power. The man is a murder, a psychopath and a war criminal. It is almost certain that he has appropriated Russian government money for him and his family. He has repeatedly changed the law in Russia so that he can rule for as long as he likes. He ensures that the elections in Russia are always rigged in his favour. He snuffs out independent and free media and eliminates competition to him.

Putin already hates the west, he already knows we want him gone. So Biden being frank about him is not really going to be news to him.

While that’s true, having those words coming directly from the mouth of the President of the United States and then being played on Russian domestic news with subtitles underneath will certainly help back up some of what Putin has been shouting about to his captive audience.

 

[John Luxton]

Thee only real long term option is to dismember Russia and divide it into three or four new states, centred around Moscow, St Petersburg, Siberia and perhaps a slew of new unstable states in the south that can be perpetually at war with each other.

Putin isn't the cause of all this, it's the Russian mentality to blame.

Well there you have the problem no wonder Russia doesn't like the west. Coupled with the fact they were invaded by France once and Germany twice!

The most sensible way to have dealt with things was in the 1990s for the west and Russia to have agreed to keep a line of neutral buffer states between Russia and the West. Neutrality could have been overseen my a joint commission. After a period of time and perhaps when Russia gained more confidence with the west it might have been possible after a period of 30 to 50 years to allow countries to choose which sphere on influence they wished to fall under. It might well be in that time Russia could have Westernised.

In my view what has happened in the past month could have been so easily avoided.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2022 ==

Fact check time.

Done a quick trawl of reliable sources and I've managed to count just over 340,000 civilian deaths between Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Yugoslavia, Libya, which I'd say are the main US involved actions in those three presidencies. Where are the other 10.7 million bodies?

I didn't suggest it was accurate in terms of figures but it points out that the US has embarked on various exploits with our country usually in tow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2022 ==

That and the graphic you displayed is utter rubbish. The graphic contains outright lies: 11 million civilians have not been killed, even accidentally, by American forces, over the last 23 years. And I'm pretty sure America has not invaded 9 countries in that time. I can count 2 - Iraq and Afghanistan, and a couple of others where there has been military action but not an invasion (Libya for example). Do you not bother doing any fact-checking before you share stuff?

Also, Russia's actions in Ukraine (and Syria and other countries) are incomparably different to anything the America has done recently. Russia has invaded a democratic country that has caused it no harm, and is deliberately killing and abducting civilians, seeking to strike terror into a population that clearly does not want Russia there, for no apparent reason other than as some kind of imperialistic land-grab by Putin.

On the other hand, America invaded one country (Afghanistan) in response to a direct attack on America by forces hosted by the then-governing Taliban, and another (Iraq) twice [*] - the first occasion being in response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, and Kuwait's appeals for help. By all accounts, on all occasions, the aim was to remove/constrain a despot, American forces sought to avoid civilian casualties, and made arrangements for the populations of those countries to elect their own Governments. Not at all the same thing.

[*] although the first time was a lot more than 23 years ago. I suspect graphic you're sharing was created at least about 10 years ago, and so is way out of date. The claims in it are still outright lies though, even if you're working on about 2010 as a baseline.

I didn't check the figures and yes the numbers do appear exaggerated but it highlights just how many military adventures the US has embarked on usually with Britain in tow. Yes something had to be done in the aftermath of 9/11 but in the end they abandoned Afghanistan to the fundamentalists anyway. How many of our people gave their lives?

 

[TheEdge]

I didn't suggest it was accurate in terms of figures but it points out that the US has embarked on various exploits with our country usually in tow.

So you are sharing an image which consists of and bases its point on totally fictitious figures and presenting it as a useful statement of fact?

Do you already work for RT? I'm sure they'll be happy to have you if not.

 

[Falcon1200]

If we think Putin is such bad guy

We don't think Putin is a bad guy..... We know he is. His actions, of which the invasion of Ukraine is the latest and most outrageous of a long list, prove it beyond any doubt.

no wonder Russia doesn't like the west. Coupled with the fact they were invaded by France once and Germany twice!

Forgetting that before the second German invasion of Russia, Russia had invaded Poland.

The USA/UK/NATO/EU/West in general are not perfect, far from it, but are not remotely comparable to Russia.

 

[John Luxton]

A very embarrassing slip up from Biden it seems.

How the Americans voted for this guy is beyond me. You only have to watch him to realise he should have long been admitted to the old folks' home. He is just not up to the job.

Like him or loath him Trump had more going for him and the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if Trump runs again.

I also think Putin would not have been so adventurous. I know some suggest Trump was in Putin's pocket but I also read somewhere recently Trump liked to keep potential foes really close, even closer than his allies.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2022 ==

While that’s true, having those words coming directly from the mouth of the President of the United States and then being played on Russian domestic news with subtitles underneath will certainly help back up some of what Putin has been shouting about to his captive audience.

Exactly the old WWII slogan "Careless Talk Costs Lives" springs to mind.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2022 ==

So you are sharing an image which consists of and bases its point on totally fictitious figures and presenting it as a useful statement of fact?

Do you already work for RT? I'm sure they'll be happy to have you if not.

I actually found the graphic on a pro Trump supporters page. Don't work for anyone I retired two years ago but I do believe in looking at problems from both sides and not just going along with the vox populi.

I think like most people I wish what has happened hadn't but I am trying to understand why it happened.

 

[TheEdge]

I actually found the graphic on a pro Trump supporters page. Don't work for anyone I retired two years ago but I do believe in looking at problems from both sides and not just going along with the vox populi.

I think like most people I wish what has happened hadn't but I am trying to understand why it happened.

Looking at a problem from both sides isn't the same as sharing outright fabricated "facts". Of course a Trump group would be sharing that, they think Vlad is a wonderful example of a strong nationalist leader and would love to see Donald wield that power in the US.

 

[AlterEgo]

While that’s true, having those words coming directly from the mouth of the President of the United States and then being played on Russian domestic news with subtitles underneath will certainly help back up some of what Putin has been shouting about to his captive audience.

Quite. The President of the United States doesn’t get to make personal statements. Everything he says is de facto policy, hence the quick and sensible backtracking by Blinken et al. It’s a sensible thing to think, a much less sensible thing to say.

 

[yorksrob]

Well there you have the problem no wonder Russia doesn't like the west. Coupled with the fact they were invaded by France once and Germany twice!

The most sensible way to have dealt with things was in the 1990s for the west and Russia to have agreed to keep a line of neutral buffer states between Russia and the West. Neutrality could have been overseen my a joint commission. After a period of time and perhaps when Russia gained more confidence with the west it might have been possible after a period of 30 to 50 years to allow countries to choose which sphere on influence they wished to fall under. It might well be in that time Russia could have Westernised.

And presumably these so-called buffer states would have had no say in the situation.

It's wishful thinking to imagine that further indulging Russia would have lead them to become Westernised.