Rural DMU replacement

[Blade Fisher]

I have seen some of the discussions on BEMUs and assumed that such vehicles are meant for relatively short non electrified routes. What are the proposals for longer non Inter City type services such as Central Wales, Scottish Highlands and Scottish south west, S&C. Anyone know?

I did wonder if we might be talking combi-trains part electric part battery even leading to parts of routes being electrified if none other than to re-charge the battery element. Some posters have alluded to BEMUs being too heavy and I think that is a fair assumption given no one has considered the massive damage battery cars will do to the infrastructure because of their weight.

Probably not acceptable, though to me it would, what about a quasi air industry option. Bi-mode diesel/electric trains but using non fossil fuel diesel. There is the technology to effectively have virtual zero emissions by the diesel even if the upstream issues surrounding oil/gas still remain.

I dont think there are plans to have more diesel bi-modes but love to hear if that is not the case. Diesel/electric bi-modes would be great for the Scottish rural services esp north of Helensburgh and south of Ayr, and probably Kilmarnock too.

 

[The exile]

I have seen some of the discussions on BEMUs and assumed that such vehicles are meant for relatively short non electrified routes. What are the proposals for longer non Inter City type services such as Central Wales, Scottish Highlands and Scottish south west, S&C. Anyone know?

I did wonder if we might be talking combi-trains part electric part battery even leading to parts of routes being electrified if none other than to re-charge the battery element. Some posters have alluded to BEMUs being too heavy and I think that is a fair assumption given no one has considered the massive damage battery cars will do to the infrastructure because of their weight.

Probably not acceptable, though to me it would, what about a quasi air industry option. Bi-mode diesel/electric trains but using non fossil fuel diesel. There is the technology to effectively have virtual zero emissions by the diesel even if the upstream issues surrounding oil/gas still remain.

I dont think there are plans to have more diesel bi-modes but love to hear if that is not the case. Diesel/electric bi-modes would be great for the Scottish rural services esp north of Helensburgh and south of Ayr, and probably Kilmarnock too.

To a certain extent the can has been kicked quite a long way down the road (in theory at least) thanks to the 196s and 197s, which can hopefully be cascaded onto the most rural routes as electrification (by what ever means - not just OHLE) displaces them from busier routes. That gives us a good 30 years to sort something out.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have seen some of the discussions on BEMUs and assumed that such vehicles are meant for relatively short non electrified routes. What are the proposals for longer non Inter City type services such as Central Wales, Scottish Highlands and Scottish south west, S&C. Anyone know?

There are no current published service plans for BEMUs at all, other than thise already in service; albeit some plans do exist ‘under the covers’.

Some posters have alluded to BEMUs being too heavy and I think that is a fair assumption given no one has considered the massive damage battery cars will do to the infrastructure because of their weight.

This is nonsense I’m afraid. BEMUs will be no heavier than DMUs. And certainly a lot, lot lighter than freight trains. Therefore there is no need to consider the damage they will cause, as they won’t.

 

[Bevan Price]

Even with improvements in battery technology, I suspect that routes such as Inverness / Wick are always going to be a struggle to achieve with battery power.

More immediately, I wonder what will replace Class 156s on the Cumbrian Coast route ? Currently, they are the only class allowed to operate daily passenger services here. And I believe that the narrow tunnel at Whitehaven is "problematic" for plug-door stock if there was an emergency.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Even with improvements in battery technology, I suspect that routes such as Inverness / Wick are always going to be a struggle to achieve with battery power.

More immediately, I wonder what will replace Class 156s on the Cumbrian Coast route ? Currently, they are the only class allowed to operate daily passenger services here. And I believe that the narrow tunnel at Whitehaven is "problematic" for plug-door stock if there was an emergency.

If the tunnel is so thin that plug doors cannot even open, how are people expected to fit between a train (pocket doors or otherwise) and the tunnel wall?

 

[yorksrob]

Even with improvements in battery technology, I suspect that routes such as Inverness / Wick are always going to be a struggle to achieve with battery power.

More immediately, I wonder what will replace Class 156s on the Cumbrian Coast route ? Currently, they are the only class allowed to operate daily passenger services here. And I believe that the narrow tunnel at Whitehaven is "problematic" for plug-door stock if there was an emergency.

Presumably something with end doors would mitigate that issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even with improvements in battery technology, I suspect that routes such as Inverness / Wick are always going to be a struggle to achieve with battery power.

More immediately, I wonder what will replace Class 156s on the Cumbrian Coast route ? Currently, they are the only class allowed to operate daily passenger services here. And I believe that the narrow tunnel at Whitehaven is "problematic" for plug-door stock if there was an emergency.

Singling the two tight bits would allow 195s to run. An opportunity to do it now while Whitehaven tunnel is being dug up? It worked for Hastings.

Edit: Whitehaven tunnel is already single, so I guess gangwayed units might be needed?

 

[Snow1964]

To a certain extent the can has been kicked quite a long way down the road (in theory at least) thanks to the 196s and 197s, which can hopefully be cascaded onto the most rural routes as electrification (by what ever means - not just OHLE) displaces them from busier routes. That gives us a good 30 years to sort something out.

Exactly, really need to think of the DMU replacement as three batches.

1) Those due to be ordered within next year or two (and ideally would already have been be in build) to replace those from 1985-92. Many of these will be BEMUs as routes are part electrified. Some will need to be replaced by newer DMUs cascaded to more rural routes, by electrification or reallocating DMUs on part electrified routes.

2) A batch in about 12-15 years time replacing those built around 22-26 years ago in privatisation era, class 170, 171, 175, 185 and express 180, 220, 221, 222 etc. I am including DEMUs as they will need replacing around same time.

3) A third batch which is the more recent types, classes 195, 196, 197 etc which won't need replacing until late 2050s onwards, and are likely to be on the long rural fringes by then. No one is going to start specifying those for another 25+ years.

What probably need is list of DMU routes that are partly electrified

 

[Class 317]

The long thin rural lines will go over to battery traction last. Given the range of existing BEMU'S of circa 75 miles and upwards, which are either already deployed or being deployed in Europe, Asia and the US, most rural services should not be a problem.

For what it's worth, in any sensible world the BEMU'S being ordered today will be cascaded to these long thin rural routes in the future. This will probably be after a mid life overhaul which will likely include a mid life battery upgrade giving them much better range etc. Given the less demanding speeds etc on these long thin rural routes range will not be an issue.

 

[Blade Fisher]

There are no current published service plans for BEMUs at all, other than thise already in service; albeit some plans do exist ‘under the covers’.




This is nonsense I’m afraid. BEMUs will be no heavier than DMUs. And certainly a lot, lot lighter than freight trains. Therefore there is no need to consider the damage they will cause, as they won’t.

Woah, woah, hold your horses there. You are doing a comparison with freight but surely these units will be used on lines that dont see heavy freight trains. Therefore the comparison IS valid. There are thousands of miles of usually unclassified rural roads subjected to a 7.5tn weight limit. With more battery cars using them they will deteriorate more quickly. Well RA has been lowered in many instances because lines dont see the use of higher RA requirements. However heavier units may well over time have an effect on track maintenance and thus cost. What I dont know is, how much heavier such units are/will be.

These issues are often brushed under the carpet for fear of upsetting the Millibandistas (despite the fact it costs a lot more money).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2025 ==

The long thin rural lines will go over to battery traction last. Given the range of existing BEMU'S of circa 75 miles and upwards, which are either already deployed or being deployed in Europe, Asia and the US, most rural services should not be a problem.

For what it's worth, in any sensible world the BEMU'S being ordered today will be cascaded to these long thin rural routes in the future. This will probably be after a mid life overhaul which will likely include a mid life battery upgrade giving them much better range etc. Given the less demanding speeds etc on these long thin rural routes range will not be an issue.

Not a techy/engineer but how does this affect hilly routes? Real hilly routes with short steep grades.

 

[RailWonderer]

Somewhat relevant but why is the Sheffield - Huddersfield only operated by 150s? All surrounding Northern routes use 195s so why did they keep them off this route, are there infrastructure problems ? Before talking about the Cumbrian Coast, they should be getting Sprinters off these routes first.

 

[Bald Rick]

Woah, woah, hold your horses there. You are doing a comparison with freight but surely these units will be used on lines that dont see heavy freight trains.

I was doing a comparison with DMUs, and also mentioning freight. Many rural routes do see heavy freight trains, such as the Cumbriam coast, S&C, etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2025 ==

What I dont know is, how much heavier such units are/will be.

They will be no heavier than DMUs

Not a techy/engineer but how does this affect hilly routes? Real hilly routes with short steep grades.

It doesn’t. Hills actually help.

 

[Class 317]

Woah, woah, hold your horses there. You are doing a comparison with freight but surely these units will be used on lines that dont see heavy freight trains. Therefore the comparison IS valid. There are thousands of miles of usually unclassified rural roads subjected to a 7.5tn weight limit. With more battery cars using them they will deteriorate more quickly. Well RA has been lowered in many instances because lines dont see the use of higher RA requirements. However heavier units may well over time have an effect on track maintenance and thus cost. What I dont know is, how much heavier such units are/will be.

These issues are often brushed under the carpet for fear of upsetting the Millibandistas (despite the fact it costs a lot more money).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2025 ==


Not a techy/engineer but how does this affect hilly routes? Real hilly routes with short steep grades.

Battery units will be no heavier than DMU'S of the same type. Like the Hitachi 80x test bed weight will be the same as the diesel engine and fuel tanks.

Regen braking will reduce energy use on hills by recovering a significant amount of that energy on the downhill sections.

 

[tbtc]

One advantage of some of these rural routes is the long layovers at termini could give plenty of time to charge batteries, if facilities were there (compared to intensely used trains on busier routes)

Somewhat relevant but why is the Sheffield - Huddersfield only operated by 150s? All surrounding Northern routes use 195s so why did they keep them off this route, are there infrastructure problems ? Before talking about the Cumbrian Coast, they should be getting Sprinters off these routes first.

AIUI many platforms west of Barnsley can only handle 3x20m, so there's no other option at the moment

It's still longer than the two coach trains from Sheffield to Barnsley that are limited by the fun sized capacity at platform seventeen there - the line through Barnsley really is held back by such limits

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It's been done to death now. Batteries and battery infrastructure are now evolved enough for even lines like Thurso. By the time we actually get round to introducing this kind of stock, they'll be even more evolved and capable.

Regenerative braking tops up the battery regularly during the journey. You can supplement with fast rapid chargers at strategic locations, e.g. locations where the train would be scheduled to pass another for a few minutes, and obviously at the start/ end of the route.

These chargers already exist, and don't require any serious local infrastructure to support, as they trickle charge large capacitors slowly, and when a train needs charging, essentially transfers the energy rapidly. At least in very simple terms, it's obviously got a bit more going on.

Tiny investment in infrastructure, tweaking of schedules and a fleet of new battery trains - and you're good to go pretty much on any branch or rural line.

 

[Charlie978]

Somewhat relevant but why is the Sheffield - Huddersfield only operated by 150s? All surrounding Northern routes use 195s so why did they keep them off this route, are there infrastructure problems ? Before talking about the Cumbrian Coast, they should be getting Sprinters off these routes first.

Just the general shortage of DMUs at northern, especially 195s. You do often see 1 or 2 195s diagrammed on the Huddersfield line on a Sunday when they work through to Lincoln, however only 2car, as 3car 195 wouldn’t fit on most platforms north of Barnsley.

Personally, on the quieter runs (midday/sunday) a 195 is wonderful, but I do fear that the reduced capacity compared to a 150/0 on peak and school trains could be a problem on that line.

 

[gingertom]

Even with improvements in battery technology, I suspect that routes such as Inverness / Wick are always going to be a struggle to achieve with battery power.

depends on how much OLE is provided strategically to facilitate recharging. The last iteration of "the plan" was wires as far north as Tain, but no mention of anything else, other than plans for hydrogen. A length of OLE between Thurso and Wick plus another approximately halfway would go a long way sorting that- Golspie/Brora/Helmsdale?

 

[Bevan Price]

Somewhat relevant but why is the Sheffield - Huddersfield only operated by 150s? All surrounding Northern routes use 195s so why did they keep them off this route, are there infrastructure problems ? Before talking about the Cumbrian Coast, they should be getting Sprinters off these routes first.

Not been on the line for a few years, but I have had a 158 on Shefield / Huddersfield.

 

[Carnforth_24]

Exactly, really need to think of the DMU replacement as three batches.

1) Those due to be ordered within next year or two (and ideally would already have been be in build) to replace those from 1985-92. Many of these will be BEMUs as routes are part electrified. Some will need to be replaced by newer DMUs cascaded to more rural routes, by electrification or reallocating DMUs on part electrified routes.

2) A batch in about 12-15 years time replacing those built around 22-26 years ago in privatisation era, class 170, 171, 175, 185 and express 180, 220, 221, 222 etc. I am including DEMUs as they will need replacing around same time.

3) A third batch which is the more recent types, classes 195, 196, 197 etc which won't need replacing until late 2050s onwards, and are likely to be on the long rural fringes by then. No one is going to start specifying those for another 25+ years.

What probably need is list of DMU routes that are partly electrified

Generally speaking, I’d add at least 10 years to each of those timings. There’s no way that an order will be placed in the next couple of years to replace all 150/156 and especially 158 classes.

 

[Blade Fisher]

Battery units will be no heavier than DMU'S of the same type. Like the Hitachi 80x test bed weight will be the same as the diesel engine and fuel tanks.

Regen braking will reduce energy use on hills by recovering a significant amount of that energy on the downhill sections.

I wondered if that would be the case. Just the sort of thing you want to do.

 

[Siimo]

Some posters have alluded to BEMUs being too heavy and I think that is a fair assumption given no one has considered the massive damage battery cars will do to the infrastructure because of their weight.

The idea that EVs are going to smash up roads and collapse bridges because of marginally increased weight - on average around 10-15% - is unfounded FUD, and like most misinformation around electric transport can probably be traced back to the panicked oil industry. Solid-state batteries, which are just starting to appear at the time of writing, will likely render the disparity with ICE almost nonexistant.

 

[Trainman40083]

One advantage of some of these rural routes is the long layovers at termini could give plenty of time to charge batteries, if facilities were there (compared to intensely used trains on busier routes)



AIUI many platforms west of Barnsley can only handle 3x20m, so there's no other option at the moment

It's still longer than the two coach trains from Sheffield to Barnsley that are limited by the fun sized capacity at platform seventeen there - the line through Barnsley really is held back by such limits

Plans to extend platform 17 at Leeds, so might see longer trains via Barnsley