Running times.

[CBlue]

The speed limit for buses on a single carriageway road is 50mph, not 60mph. Until relatively recently it was 40mph.

Wasn't that speed limit change just for HGV's over 7.5 tonne?

Fairly sure the limit for buses and coaches was already 50mph, much like they're allowed to do 70mph on motorways whereas for HGV's it's only 60

 

[Unstoppable]

The speed limit for buses on a single carriageway road is 50mph, not 60mph. Until relatively recently it was 40mph.

Buses and coaches have always been 50mph on single carriageway. You are thinking of HGVs. In Scotland HGVs are still 40mph on single carriageway with the exception of the A9

Wasn't that speed limit change just for HGV's over 7.5 tonne?

Fairly sure the limit for buses and coaches was already 50mph, much like they're allowed to do 70mph on motorways whereas for HGV's it's only 60

The limit was already 50mph for buses and coaches. Buses under 12m can do 70mph on motorway but you will find most if not all limited to 62mph. Lorries are limited to 56mph and can be lower due to fuel usage

 

[Tetchytyke]

You are thinking of HGVs.

You are quite right, I was.

 

[Geordie driver]

Many ( most?) buses used on normal local and short express routes will struggle to hit 50 mph, one of the companies cunning plans has been to cut acceleration and top speed to save fuel, making it even harder to keep time. In any case, these are the top legal speeds, doesn't mean they are achievable safely.

We had a bunch of ex London MCWs that would only do 32mph, they were used on all routes.

 

[CBlue]

Many ( most?) buses used on normal local and short express routes will struggle to hit 50 mph, one of the companies cunning plans has been to cut acceleration and top speed to save fuel, making it even harder to keep time. In any case, these are the top legal speeds, doesn't mean they are achievable safely.

We had a bunch of ex London MCWs that would only do 32mph, they were used on all routes.

I once heard the story that a lot of the local to here Tridents also had their fuel pumps restricted down so they would actually pass the emissions test come MOT time. Certainly as they aged they became known for chucking out black smoke and got very sluggish, to the extent that as a passenger you could tell if your bus was going to be a Olympian or one of the Tridents simply by it running late...

 

[Typhoon]

I think some of the critisism about running times is a little unfair.

Timetables and schedules have to please four groups of people at once with sometimes competing objectives

Customers as they are the bread and butter of the industry.

Drivers as they are out there keeping the wheels turning.

Management as they want to ensure things are as efficient as possible.

...

I suspect the highlighted groups are asking for the impossible - they want buses to run on time while pressing for a neat timetable, a bus every 15 minutes, half hour (pick a frequency) as though the time taken for a journey starting at 14:00 will be the same as one starting at, say, 15:00 (school kick-out time, except for the days when schools are closed or when they close early). They want neat timetables because there is every chance there is no timetable at the stop (either not provided or vandalised) and the company has probably stopped providing printed timetables or to get one you need to go to the nearest TIC which is miles away because the local one closed. Even one starting at 10.30 will take less time than one starting at 09.30 (probably). All of this is before consideration is given to road works where, at least where I live - South East - little consideration seems to be given to the additional time required resulting in the next journey starting late, especially as, like the proverbial bus, you wait a long time for road works then three come along on the same route, and some last for more than just a few weeks. Then there are railway crossings!

Personally, I prefer one which hangs around for a few minutes just two stops from where I want to get off but started on time than one that turns up late because of tight running time (especially with winter approaching).

 

[175mph]

Without meaning to sound disrespectful to the elderly, as some have impaired mobility, it's often the routes that are popular with the elderly that run late, you'll get one of them holding up the bus for ransom by arguing with the driver as to where they are going, or simply having a gossip and the driver is too polite to end the conversation and ask them to be seated.

 

[PeterC]

Without meaning to sound disrespectful to the elderly, as some have impaired mobility, it's often the routes that are popular with the elderly that run late, you'll get one of them holding up the bus for ransom by arguing with the driver as to where they are going, or simply having a gossip and the driver is too polite to end the conversation and ask them to be seated.

It mostly regulars on my local route and it isn't uncommon for people to stop and chat to the driver as they get off. An old boy in my street is a devil for that and more than once I have been standing on the pavement calling to him to stop holding the driver up (not to mention the cars stuck behind the bus).

No dispresect on my part, I have been drawing a pension for a fair old time myself now.

 

[freddiem]

New to this thread and thought I would throw my tuppence worth in, There is a terrible problem on my local route with huge amounts of running time along the first part of the route (meaning buses often pass stops early and sitting for 5+ mins at a timing point) then getting stuck in traffic before even reaching the city traffic meaning huge gaps in the service for those waiting to board further along the route. The problem is made significantly worse by part-time traffic lights that usually come on around 0730 meaning if I board the 0700 bus I get to work days early, and if I get the 0715 bus it gets caught in the traffic and I arrive late. The running time itself is fairly generous, but as highlighted any minor disruption and you may as well throw the timetable in the bin

 

[Statto]

Arriva X1 Runcorn-Liverpool, the old route was given 55 minutes end to end, but even off peak buses could be 15-20 minutes late or even later due to traffic, then add in traffic lights, some junctions are a nightmare to cross because traffic lights are on red for ages, then green for a short time delaying buses even further.

I have a few timetables from the 70s & 80s what makes me laugh is buses were timed to take the same journey time all day including early morning/late evening & Sundays, which meant on some journeys it felt like the bus was going at 5mph on a clear run. I always remember back in the day buses i was on, had to wait at the last stop before the terminus for a few minutes as they were so early, nowadays even when buses are early, drivers can't wait quick enough to get to the terminus.

 

[Llandudno]

Arriva X1 Runcorn-Liverpool, the old route was given 55 minutes end to end, but even off peak buses could be 15-20 minutes late or even later due to traffic, then add in traffic lights, some junctions are a nightmare to cross because traffic lights are on red for ages, then green for a short time delaying buses even further.

I have a few timetables from the 70s & 80s what makes me laugh is buses were timed to take the same journey time all day including early morning/late evening & Sundays, which meant on some journeys it felt like the bus was going at 5mph on a clear run. I always remember back in the day buses i was on, had to wait at the last stop before the terminus for a few minutes as they were so early, nowadays even when buses are early, drivers can't wait quick enough to get to the terminus.

That’s Arriva North West & Wales for you!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

We had a bunch of ex London MCWs that would only do 32mph, they were used on all routes.

I think it's standard practice for London buses to be limited ridiculously low.

 

[Geordie driver]

Someone up thread mentioned years ago times were the same all day and on a Sunday, this was indeed my experience. The difference was there would be a decent amount of time at the terminus, so a bus that ran a bit late a peak times had a chance of getting back on time, many companies are loathe to do this now. If you left your last timing point on time and ran in a bit sharp inspectors wouldn't be on your back about it. Swings and roundabouts.

I can appreciate it is a balancing act, the company has to make a profit, but at the same time a service which is unreliable is less attractive and loses custom.

It's a shame those coming up with these times often have never worked as a driver, indeed many of them don't use public transport much.

Pre privatisation no one in our company had a company car, managers were expected to use public transport, at least at my depot they were.

 

[Andy Pacer]

There has been a tendency from what I've seen to (historically) have weekday evening and all day Sunday service levels very similar, almost one based on the other. However with the increase in Sunday shopping in recent years often the Sunday element has become unachievable.

 

[Westcountryman]

Wasn't that speed limit change just for HGV's over 7.5 tonne?

Fairly sure the limit for buses and coaches was already 50mph, much like they're allowed to do 70mph on motorways whereas for HGV's it's only 60

Not strictly accurate. The motorway speed limit for a PCV less than 12 metres long is 70mph, the speed limit for a PCV exceeding 12 metres is 60mph.

EDIT: Didn't see a later post>

 

[Caleb2010]

Wouldn’t tendered services be the council deciding the running times.

Certainly in my experience with tendered routes the council is responsible for the route and the company literally just supplies the bus and driver to work it!

 

[LancasterRed]

Lancashire County Council love to screw over bus companies.

Don't get me wrong, both Coastal Coaches and Preston Bus deserved to be stripped of their tendered routes but the way they expect Blackpool Transport to keep to car times on their 74 and 75 routes is beyond negligent. It is impossible without speeding or reckless driving.

The bus companies themselves should be allowed to put forward a realistic timetable that can be met with stops. Bear in mind the 74 in particular barely stops between Ashton and Poulton but still loses time...

 

[Andy Pacer]

Wouldn’t tendered services be the council deciding the running times.

Certainly in my experience with tendered routes the council is responsible for the route and the company literally just supplies the bus and driver to work it!

There is an element of that depending on the tender. But there have been instances of operators making the timetable more achievable (with the agreement of the local authority of course).

 

[Llandudno]

Bit of history here , but back in the 1980s MPTE routes 26/27 Sheil Road Circular.

Same running time all day, 7 days a week.
Buses every 5 minutes at peak times, 12 minutes evenings and Sundays.

During the evening it was not uncommon to have three of the five buses in service all sat at Liverpool’s Central Bus Station. Buses used to leave 12 minutes late (on time from a passenger perspective!) then go like the clappers and arrive back at the bus station early!

The only exceptions of course, were the last departures at 2248, 2300, 2312, 2324, 2336 which departed on time for some reason.....!

 

[philthetube]

Not strictly accurate. The motorway speed limit for a PCV less than 12 metres long is 70mph, the speed limit for a PCV exceeding 12 metres is 60mph.

I never knew that about 12 meters,

It is worth noting that although the speed limit is 70mph for shorter vehicles, (I can't see what difference the length makes), There are very few that can do 70 as they are required to have a limiter which restricts them to 100kph, unless they are ancient.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Bit of history here , but back in the 1980s MPTE routes 26/27 Sheil Road Circular.

Same running time all day, 7 days a week.
Buses every 5 minutes at peak times, 12 minutes evenings and Sundays.

During the evening it was not uncommon to have three of the five buses in service all sat at Liverpool’s Central Bus Station. Buses used to leave 12 minutes late (on time from a passenger perspective!) then go like the clappers and arrive back at the bus station early!

The only exceptions of course, were the last departures at 2248, 2300, 2312, 2324, 2336 which departed on time for some reason.....!

Were they known locally as "The Belt" back then?

 

[Westcountryman]

I never knew that about 12 meters,

It is worth noting that although the speed limit is 70mph for shorter vehicles, (I can't see what difference the length makes), There are very few that can do 70 as they are required to have a limiter which restricts them to 100kph, unless they are ancient.

I can't understand it either. I am just aware of it as I did my PCV in 2018. As the fastest bus I have driven was only capable of ~45mph, it doesn't worry me too much.

 

[Dai Corner]

What effect has the advent of real time info had on theoretical and actual running times?

Management have a wealth of info but do they analyse it to refine schedules?

Do drivers have any indication of whether they're early, on time or late and do they act differently knowing the boss could be monitoring them?

 

[Megafuss]

What effect has the advent of real time info had on theoretical and actual running times?

Management have a wealth of info but do they analyse it to refine schedules?

Do drivers have any indication of whether they're early, on time or late and do they act differently knowing the boss could be monitoring them?

For most companies the information is available to ops staff, scheduleing staff and management. However, most commercial/scheduling departments are understaffed or not well structured. There is also a tendancy for those that don't know that things can be done at a just "a touch of a button", something any half decent scheduler knows is a load of rubbish.

Ticketer machines can be loaded with schedules. Vix machines can also tell the driver if they running on time so long as the data peovude

 

[markymark2000]

What effect has the advent of real time info had on theoretical and actual running times?

Management have a wealth of info but do they analyse it to refine schedules?

Do drivers have any indication of whether they're early, on time or late and do they act differently knowing the boss could be monitoring them?

Depends on the ticket machine. I know the Vix machines show you how late/early you are however show incorrect information so I know some drivers ignore it. Even at timing points, many drivers have said that the machine says they are 2 mins early but the duty board says you are bang on time. How can there be a difference when it's a timing point? Inbetween it uses the estimated bus stop times which as we all know are bonkers in many cases so the Vix machine can say you are on time but in reality, you have 5 minutes to get 30 seconds up the road. For this reason, Vix machine timekeeping is generally ignored.
This must reflect back into the depot as well as if it's recording drivers leaving early when infact they aren't, that must lead to the performance team casting doubt and then commercial teams casting doubt as well on it's accuracy. I think using the Vix system, you are in the same position operationally as if you had just plain GPS. Looking at timing points and seeing scheduled vs actual rather than relying on the +/- off the machine.

 

[Stan Drews]

Ticketer machines can show the driver if they are early/late compared with the schedule. However, like all IT systems, they are only as good as the quality of the base information. Some companies have extremely good base data, so will get relatively accurate reporting on punctuality etc, but as there is always a human element involved (the driver has to select the correct journey), a degree of inaccuracy will inevitably creep in. Some companies base data is very poor, and that will be reflected in what drivers see out on the road, and the usefulness of reports generated by the software.

 

[Eyersey468]

Ticketer machines can show the driver if they are early/late compared with the schedule. However, like all IT systems, they are only as good as the quality of the base information. Some companies have extremely good base data, so will get relatively accurate reporting on punctuality etc, but as there is always a human element involved (the driver has to select the correct journey), a degree of inaccuracy will inevitably creep in. Some companies base data is very poor, and that will be reflected in what drivers see out on the road, and the usefulness of reports generated by the software.

I find our Ticketer machines are about a minute out with regards to showing if you are on time on the +/- function, a minute early shows as on time, on time can sometimes show as a minute late and more than a minute late adds an extra minute, so 5 minutes late shows as 6 minutes etc

 

[Tackleberry]

The speed limit for buses on a single carriageway road is 50mph, not 60mph. Until relatively recently it was 40mph.

No it’s always been 50 for buses, it’s been raised from 40 to 50 for trucks...