Running locos around at terminus stations

[RichmondCommu]

And before then 24s, and before them does anybody else remember Class 20s on Euston ECS moves?

(I'm feeling old!)

I would love to join you in sympathy but alas I can't! I often wondered whether the class 25's were based at Willesden or Cricklewood.

 

[krus_aragon]

And before then 24s, and before them does anybody else remember Class 20s on Euston ECS moves?

(I'm feeling old!)

I'm sadly far too young to remember this, but would like to ask: Why would the 20s have been replaced by 24s (and themselves by 25s) on ECS duties? Were they unsuitable for the work, or was more suitable work found elsewhere?

 

[edwin_m]

In the case of the 20s, perhaps a loco with a cab each end was better for sighting for the frequent coupling and uncoupling?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Don't know much about that part of the country but I seem to remember that many of them ended up being more or less permanently in pairs, coupled together at the nose.

 

[6Gman]

Don't know much about that part of the country but I seem to remember that many of them ended up being more or less permanently in pairs, coupled together at the nose.

That was later. In the early days 20s were often used singly. The poor forward visibility was no worse than on the steam locos they replaced.

And one of my most exciting bits of haulage was emerging from the Fort William sleeper at Spean Bridge one morning (c.1964) to find we had been hauled by a 27+20 combination!

 

[D1009]

I'm interested to know why the train ran from Euston? I can only assume that it was to ensure that all the sleeper's were maintained at the same place i.e. Wembley.

I'm not sure precisely why it was, but St Pancras was being run down at the time, and Euston had a huge parcels depot above the station.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not sure precisely why it was, but St Pancras was being run down at the time, and Euston had a huge parcels depot above the station.

Based on that information, any time between completion of the new Euston in the mid-60s, and loss of the parcels traffic in the 90s. St Pancras was arguably being run down over the whole of that period...

But seriously, more likely to be the sixties.

 

[Taunton]

The first batch of twenty Class 20s were among the very earliest diesels on the national system in the 1950s, many were allocated to the first diesel depot in the country at Devons Road, Bow, in East London (long closed), which was actually a London Midland Region depot despite its location, but a few were at Willesden. They dieselised, all in one go, the freight workings from Willesden Yard round the North London line to the London docks, where the steam depots had been suffering significant staff shortages. This traffic fluctuated considerably from day to day depending on what ships were in port or not, so when not so required they were used on Euston ECS and local passenger workings.

It may seem surprising, from today's view, when a 3,300 hp Class 66 is sent out even if there are just a couple of wagons to haul, that a 1,000 hp diesel loco was assigned to full length freight or ECS trains, but they handled these just as well as the 'Jinty' 3F 0-6-0Ts they replaced. The low power will start a large train, and get it up to a certain speed, the extra horsepower is only required for the combination of weight and speed. The freights on the North London line didn't often even get up to 30 mph, and they were fine with that. As far as I recall they were never run in pairs until later and elsewhere. The London docks closed very rapidly in the 1960s and the locos moved away from the area.

I believe these locos had no steam train heating boiler so would only be used on passenger trains in the summer when no heat was provided.

 

[poshfan]

I believe these locos had no steam train heating boiler so would only be used on passenger trains in the summer when no heat was provided.

Yes I think that's right, they were often used in pairs on seasonal trains to Skegness and Great Yarmouth, or sometimes it might be 2 x 25's, but I never saw them on the regular year round Birmingham - Norwich trains which always seemed to have a single 31.

 

[Taunton]

Regarding the 27 + 20 formation described above on the West Highland line, on an overnight sleeper through the mountains that would require steam heat for all 12 months of the year, a number of Class 20s (and other non-heat locos) were fitted with through steam pipes under the frame. This was a relatively simple adaptation compared to actually having the boiler etc on board. The leading loco would be the Class 27, with full boiler capability, the Class 20 just passed the steam through underneath.

For steam heat trains with multiple-unit locomotives, the leading loco always provided the steam, this was necessary for the fireman to periodically go back into the engine room and tend to the many foibles of those early-generation steam boilers; any other locos double-heading the formation just passed the steam back. Similarly there were many vans "through piped" so they could be at the head of the train, in front of the passenger vehicles.

If the boiler failed completely, in steam loco days in winter a steam loco might be added for no other purpose than to provide steam heat. In this case it was generally the procedure to couple the steam loco behind the diesel it was assisting. This was not because it was needed to have the steam provided directly to the train, for it could always just be passed back by the through pipe, but more that if a steam loco was ahead of the diesel there was a continuing liability for lumps of coal from the tender to be displaced and smash the windscreen of a diesel coupled right behind.

 

[306024]

Yes I think that's right, they were often used in pairs on seasonal trains to Skegness and Great Yarmouth, or sometimes it might be 2 x 25's, but I never saw them on the regular year round Birmingham - Norwich trains which always seemed to have a single 31.

'Tis indeed correct. The seasonal trains to Great Yarmouth were good fun to diagram. As they ran via Norwich the loco that worked into Norwich was then sometimes planned to work a subsequent train to Great Yarmouth once it was released from the stops. If they arrived at Norwich in the wrong order, then you got some interesting workings, which sometimes saw the 2x20 go through to Great Yarmouth.

 

[30907]

I'm pretty sure that about 6 years ago there was still a loco release at one of the platforms at London Bridge (Southern side). I was surprised to spot it given that London Bridge probably hasn't seen a Loco hauled service in a very long time!

I would imagine it has gone by now in the rebuild.

It was IIRC used by the Brighton/Eastbourne newspaper trains which didn't require the full length of the platform, as it saved diagramming a turnover engine
- but I was never there at 0320 to observe the working.
The Oxted line locohauleds did use a turnover engine and left from the 10-car platforms in the old Low Level part, outside the overall roof, because using the runround in the peak would have been inconvenient.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There used to be a station with a turntable at the buffer end of the platforms which was used to turn the loco and put it onto a differant road im sure it was in Kent if fell out of used with DMU coming into use I think it was pretty unique. Cant find a pic Im sure someone will have one.

I think Ramsgate Harbour (closed 1929 or so, well before EMUs!) - Kent is a bit short on terminus stations, I wonder if Sheerness originally had one also? Fairly certain there were a few others across the country, but I can only think of Bembridge and Ventnor which weren't used as turntables (IoW never had tender engines).

The Ravenglass and Eskdale has one at each end.

 

[L&Y Robert]

There used to be a station with a turntable at the buffer end of the platforms which was used to turn the loco and put it onto a different road.

Ravenglass & Eskdale do this at Dalegarth.

 

[Michael.Y]

A vid of the turnaround procedure for Class 37s at Bangor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k88_lFQY5wk

 

[CC 72100]

Don't know if it's still done, but some regional services in Paris were hauled out by a new loco with the terminus-end loco uncoupled but following a few tens of metres behind (presumably to a siding beyond the end of the station to await the next service). Looked pretty efficient but I did think that it wouldn't happen in the UK, even if we did still have loco-hauled services.

Whilst I've not seen all of the this type of operations (obviously), I've never seen it done.

On loco-hauled services, it tends to be on Push/pull sets - certainly the Transilien sets are, as are the TER out of Paris Lyon, and after that, we're into Intercity (CIC) services.

Indeed the Intercity Loco-hauled services out of Paris Est on Corail sets are treated as you would expect - loco that brought the train in happily sits there until after the set has been take back out, doesn't go out with or at the same time as the set, pretty normal.

 

[infobleep]

If the boiler failed completely, in steam loco days in winter a steam loco might be added for no other purpose than to provide steam heat. In this case it was generally the procedure to couple the steam loco behind the diesel it was assisting. This was not because it was needed to have the steam provided directly to the train, for it could always just be passed back by the through pipe, but more that if a steam loco was ahead of the diesel there was a continuing liability for lumps of coal from the tender to be displaced and smash the windscreen of a diesel coupled right behind.

That is fascinating. I wasn't aware diesel and steam trains ran together, except on mainline steam rail tours.

 

[Johnuk123]

That is fascinating. I wasn't aware diesel and steam trains ran together, except on mainline steam rail tours.

It was very common and you'll find thousands of pictures all over the net.

 

[Welshman]

Indeed.
And there are occasional stories in books of footplate reminiscences of crews on old steam engines inside to provide heat only, having to hang on for dear life, when being dragged along by their ambitious colleagues up front experimenting with the novelty of their newly-discovered power, and "forgetting" they were behind!

 

[infobleep]

It was IIRC used by the Brighton/Eastbourne newspaper trains which didn't require the full length of the platform, as it saved diagramming a turnover engine
- but I was never there at 0320 to observe the working.
The Oxted line locohauleds did use a turnover engine and left from the 10-car platforms in the old Low Level part, outside the overall roof, because using the runround in the peak would have been inconvenient.

What is on the site of the old low level part now or is it still in use as sidings?

 

[306024]

Back in the 1980s, locomotive diagramming at terminus stations was indeed quite complex.

For example at Liverpool St there were class 31s, 37s and 47s, some of which were only fitted with vacuum brakes, and some only capable of steam heating. The rolling stock was also a mixture of air or vacuum braked stock, with either steam or electric heating. Obviously you had to match the appropriate locomotive to the appropriate stock. On arrival the incoming locomotive would be detached, and have to await the departure of it's train before being released to the holding sidings between platforms 10 and 11, or onto another train, or perhaps light to Stratford Depot. And of course it had to have sufficient fuel for whatever it's next workings were.

Over time all these variables have been eliminated, to the point the planning of locomotive hauled/pushed trains is simpler than planning multiple unit working.

 

[Bald Rick]

What is on the site of the old low level part now or is it still in use as sidings?

Platform 8. The old platform 7 was abandoned when the high level was converted to 12 car operation in the early 90s IIRC. But you can still see where it was. Catch it quick, it will all be rubble before the year is out.

 

[Taunton]

And of course it had to have sufficient fuel for whatever it's next workings were.

The earlier diesels had relatively small capacity fuel tanks. Actually they weren't too small when first delivered, when locos went on depot maybe a couple of times a day, just like steam locos had done, but as efficiency of diagrams improved they ended up doing much more mileage per day.

The end of steam heating was a benefit because they originally carried as much water for the boiler as fuel in the tanks under the frame, and with the end of steam heating fuel capacity could be doubled.

One of the causes of diesel "loco failure", too embarrassing to mention explicitly, was running out of fuel - especially in the last miles of a duty. The fuel level was not shown on the drivers' desk, only on a gauge actually on the tank under the frame. Steam locos running out of coal was not unknown, but it was far more obvious it was happening in time to do something about it!

 

[Statto]

At Liverpool Lime Street, the loco would detach from the carriages, wait for the train to depart then head into shunt neck siding between the fast & slow lines, wait for the next loco hauled train to arrive into the platform, then depart from the siding to the back of the carriages & the loco would be attached to the carriages, & train ready to depart, & repeat the process throughout the day.