Running HGVs during high winds.

[Archvile]

When the WCML is shut all day by NR what happens to the freight? I am assuming Tesco rely on their trains to keep their system flowing.
Does it just go on trucks or do the responsible truck companies not go over the hills in a storm?

My concern is whether the railway just becomes too unreliable for freight users.

mods note - split from this thread

If it can be diverted onto trucks, it'll be done so. Road transport companies (generally) don't stop operations during high winds, and it's down to driver discretion whether to take the vehicle out or not.

Your standard articulated lorry is still pretty well behaved in strong winds, especially when loaded (supermarket trailers almost always are, with goods or empty cages). Empty double deck trailers are the most unpredictable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Your standard articulated lorry is still pretty well behaved in strong winds, especially when loaded (supermarket trailers almost always are, with goods or empty cages). Empty double deck trailers are the most unpredictable.

Having seen plenty of jacknifed / overturned lorries over the years, in better conditions than this storm is forecast, I would not want to be driving any highsided vehicle over Shap or Beattock in the next 24 hours.

 

[Archvile]

Having seen plenty of jacknifed / overturned lorries over the years, in better conditions than this storm is forecast, I would not want to be driving any highsided vehicle over Shap or Beattock in the next 24 hours.

It's one of those - there's no black or white answer, and it depends on prevailing conditions/route/load and so on. Sometimes you only get a feel for how the vehicle is behaving once you're out there, and can plan accordingly.

Road haulage is generally more resilient to weather, partly down to the choice of routes available. Common sense trumps all, and the lack thereof will inevitably lead to said jacknifings/rollovers.

 

[alanbur]

If it can be diverted onto trucks, it'll be done so. Road transport companies (generally) don't stop operations during high winds, and it's down to driver discretion whether to take the vehicle out or not.

Your standard articulated lorry is still pretty well behaved in strong winds, especially when loaded (supermarket trailers almost always are, with goods or empty cages). Empty double deck trailers are the most unpredictable.

Really?

Woodhead Pass will be closed overnight both ways due to high winds from Storm Éowyn. The major road will be shut to traffic between Flouch and Hollingworth from midnight (January 24).

Because previously, this has happened:

[YorkshireLive: Picture of 2 lorries blown over together on Woodhead Pass]

 

[Archvile]

Really?

Because previously, this has happened:
View attachment 173352

Yes, really. Half a million HGVs on the roads in the UK - there will  always be incidents during adverse weather. I would guess it would take a sustained broadside gust of 70-100 mph to overturn an empty truck that is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the relative rarity of rollovers lends credence to this.

The risk of A. N. Other driver taking a truck out during high winds and actually experiencing a rollover is excruciatingly small, and that risk reduces further when common sense is applied. Note exposed location of photo above.

 

[alanbur]

Yes, really. Half a million HGVs on the roads in the UK - there will  always be incidents during adverse weather. I would guess it would take a sustained broadside gust of 70-100 mph to overturn an empty truck that is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the relative rarity of rollovers lends credence to this.

The risk of A. N. Other driver taking a truck out during high winds and actually experiencing a rollover is excruciatingly small, and that risk reduces further when common sense is applied. Note exposed location of photo above.

If common sense was so common, why have National Highways preemptively shut the A628, and the A66 as well?

 

[Archvile]

If common sense was so common, why have National Highways preemptively shut the A628, and the A66 as well?

To reduce the risk of high winds from blowing over lorries - they have to be seen to act.

For every truck that gets overturned on a particular route, there will be a thousand who 'got away with it', and ten thousand who chose a different route entirely. You never remember the good drivers. Classic confirmation bias.

 

[alanbur]

To reduce the risk of high winds from blowing over lorries - they have to be seen to act.

For every truck that gets overturned on a particular route, there will be a thousand who 'got away with it', and ten thousand who chose a different route entirely. You never remember the good drivers. Classic confirmation bias.

Nothing to do with confirmation bias, it is that it takes just one unlucky numpty for the main Manchester - Sheffield broad to be blocked for a day. And in the case of the picture above, there were two unlucky numpties within a couple of hundred meters of each other.

 

[Archvile]

Nothing to do with confirmation bias, it is that it takes just one unlucky numpty for the main Manchester - Sheffield broad to be blocked for a day. And in the case of the picture above, there were two unlucky numpties within a couple of hundred meters of each other.

Questioning how common 'common sense' is based on a small percentile of drivers being sub-par is absolutely confirmation bias. The overwhelming majority of, not only HGV, but drivers overall, are of a generally high standard. But we remember the bad ones, don't we?

Your comments actually brilliantly illustrate my original point - whilst the main Manchester - Sheffield road being closed is not ideal, there are (off the top of my head), about ten viable alternatives between the two locations. The railway isn't afforded this luxury, hence the overarching resilience of road transport during these events. It's also worth noting that the reasons for disruption are very different. Trains aren't cancelled due to the risk of being blown over, rather the risk of encountering debris/fallen wires etc, whereas vehicles... Well, I think that's been exhausted!

 

[alanbur]

Questioning how common 'common sense' is based on a small percentile of drivers being sub-par is absolutely confirmation bias. The overwhelming majority of, not only HGV, but drivers overall, are of a generally high standard. But we remember the bad ones, don't we?

The only confirmation bias here is your determination to misrepresent what I've said. It doesn't matter what proportion of drivers are sub-par or not, all that matters is that there are enough who are prepared to ignore advisory closures, take a risk and get into bother. And experience with this route is that there are, so National Highways have decided to pre-emptively and physically close it by shutting the snow gates. Take it up with them if you think it's the wrong decision.

Your comments actually brilliantly illustrate my original point - whilst the main Manchester - Sheffield road being closed is not ideal, there are (off the top of my head), about ten viable alternatives between the two locations.

Clearly off the top of your head, because there aren't 10 viable alternatives for HGV traffic.

Well, I think that's been exhausted!

Exhausting, yes.

 

[Archvile]

The only confirmation bias here is your determination to misrepresent what I've said.

You questioned how common 'common sense' is. Is that correct or did I read it wrong?

Take it up with them if you think it's the wrong decision.

Can you quote where I said it was the wrong decision?

Clearly off the top of your head, because there aren't 10 viable alternatives for HGV traffic.

Can you quote where I said there were 10 alternatives for (specifically) HGV traffic?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Some years ago I was driving up the A1 on a windy day and noticed a number of curtainsided lorries were running with the curtains open (and, obviously, empty) - presumably to reduce the risk of being blown over. A loaded lorry, being heavier, would presumably be at less risk.

 

[Elecman]

Having seen plenty of jacknifed / overturned lorries over the years, in better conditions than this storm is forecast, I would not want to be driving any highsided vehicle over Shap or Beattock in the next 24 hours.

Quite!!

 

[800001]

Quite!!

7 or 8 (reported) blown over lorries in county Durham and Teesside (A19 being one road).
This is an amber warning area. Winds are some of strongest I’ve heard, 60mph+ according to bbc.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

7 or 8 (reported) blown over lorries in county Durham and Teesside (A19 being one road).

Wonder just how many lorries will have come to grief up and down the UK by the end of the day? Likely many more than normal. The "Blackpool Gazette" (online newspaper) was reporting one having been blown over in the area this morning.

Amounderness Way closed after lorry blows over in heavy Storm Eowyn winds

A lorry has blown over in Amounderness Way as Storm Eowyn batters the Fylde coast today.

www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk

Extract...

Police were called to the scene in Fleetwood where the HGV was found on its side near Farmer Parr’s [= animal farm] shortly after 10am.

 

[Cowley]

I’ve split this into a separate discussion, but please keep things polite as I think it could be quite an interesting topic.