Rules on alighting from train at 1st class doors?

[Trackman]

I have heard of RPIs getting people on this, though it won't be common.

What walking through First or holed up in the vestibule?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What walking through First or holed up in the vestibule?

I recall that the case involved people being PFed on being seen exiting the train from a First Class door.

 

[py_megapixel]

On Great Western IETs there is, IIRC, a sign saying something like "Use toilets at the ends of the train for more space for baby changing" - so presumably it would be OK for a parent with a baby, on a standard class ticket, to use the large toilet in first class (considering that is an "end of the train") for the baby changing facilities as that is what the sign suggests they should do?

I probably have the phrasing slightly wrong.

 

[Mag_seven]

I recall that the case involved people being PFed on being seen exiting the train from a First Class door.

I can't find the thread but I recall it was at Liverpool St.

 

[robbeech]

How does this work on TPE 185s that have a first class door in the DMCL with a section of standard class seats before the first class, along with the access toilet.

The area with the accessible toilet and tip up seating designed for wheelchairs etc is NOT first class. There is no first class vestibule on a TPE 185, first class is inbetween. The door may be labelled as ‘first class’ in some way but this is courtesy to inform passengers it is the door best used to access first class.
Anyone travelling the opposite side to the accessible toilet who needs to use the accessible toilet would always be permitted to walk through first class to use it. The train does have another toilet though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The area with the accessible toilet and tip up seating designed for wheelchairs etc is NOT first class. There is no first class vestibule on a TPE 185, first class is inbetween. The door may be labelled as ‘first class’ in some way but this is courtesy to inform passengers it is the door best used to access first class.
Anyone travelling the opposite side to the accessible toilet who needs to use the accessible toilet would always be permitted to walk through first class to use it. The train does have another toilet though.

Walking through first class is permissible regardless of the reason for wishing to access another part of Standard on the other side of it. It's loitering that is not permissible. You only gain from moving forward at a terminus if you loiter; if you wait for the train to stop, walking down the platform is quicker and easier.

 

[Meerkat]

but commuters doing it every day really should plan their journey better. If the couple of minutes or so it takes to walk 240m (at most) make your journey too tight, get an earlier train or choose where you sit more sensibly.

Wouldnt it be mainly to avoid the queue at the barriers? Even if time is not tight it is really annoying getting stuck in a crowd to get off the platform (weekends being worse with all the people trying to use paper tickets on the Oyster reader etc etc!)
Some of the trains into Waterloo have the front door disabled - is that so there is no point going through First?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some of the trains into Waterloo have the front door disabled - is that so there is no point going through First?

No, it's only 159s and it's so crew can access the track without the risk of tipping crammed-in commuters out as they do.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

As a regular user, you get to know your trains and your stations, you know which carriage and which platform you'll normally enter in at! And this is the issue it becomes tribal and territorial in a commuters application of their journey.
Placing 1st at one end or the another of a train is also an issue too, whilst we know SE 1st class is a joke their placement of it does help eleviate this issue, helps the 1st class user exit quicker at intermediate station other than termini and not cause the revenue issue, it does however still create a bottle neck in the front carriage at termini which still can't be avoided.

 

[bramling]

Hitchin is one of those ridiculous stations where the exit is at one end of the station with the car park alongside but not accessible except through one set of barriers at the exit. So if you're in the last carriages then you have to walk all the way along the platform, out the gates, and then all the way back again to your car. Easy to fix with another exit down the platform

I guess this has only become an issue as the number of 12-car trains has increased. I’ve always put it down to a dose of self-importance too - Hitchin is an increasingly arrogant town nowadays - used to be quiet market town, then in the last decade or so a smug trendy commuter hotspot, and now work from home central with the main purpose of the station being for trips to London restaurants!).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2021 ==

As a regular user, you get to know your trains and your stations, you know which carriage and which platform you'll normally enter in at! And this is the issue it becomes tribal and territorial in a commuters application of their journey.
Placing 1st at one end or the another of a train is also an issue too, whilst we know SE 1st class is a joke their placement of it does help eleviate this issue, helps the 1st class user exit quicker at intermediate station other than termini and not cause the revenue issue, it does however still create a bottle neck in the front carriage at termini which still can't be avoided.

The best place for first does seem to be at the ends, as this does minimise the amount of throughput. GTR 387s are one of the worst. 365s were one of the best, one more thing the 365 designers got right.

 

[mangyiscute]

I often do this when on the GWR IETs, especially a 5 coach train when in the half and half carriage, as coming into Paddington, it can save quite a bit of time. Additionally, I do also often stand in a first-class vestibule if i know that a train is going to be absolutely rammed (usually when there are delays from Paddington to Reading) which while I understand is not allowed I believe that when on a train where even all of the standard class vestibules are packed, every sensible train manager would not try to move anyone in the first class vestibule.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I often do this when on the GWR IETs, especially a 5 coach train when in the half and half carriage, as coming into Paddington, it can save quite a bit of time. Additionally, I do also often stand in a first-class vestibule if i know that a train is going to be absolutely rammed (usually when there are delays from Paddington to Reading) which while I understand is not allowed I believe that when on a train where even all of the standard class vestibules are packed, every sensible train manager would not try to move anyone in the first class vestibule.

I think your only challenge is always gonna be a revenue block on the platform at Reading (exceptionally unlikely) where they see you alighting from a 1st class door with a standard ticket. I know, you know, we all know that revenue blocks at Reading are easier and safer on the overbridges or the barriers and not at a platform but it's possible if 1st use becomes an issue. Just be careful

 

[Falcon1200]

Depending on what Underground line you want it can be better to be in the middle of the train at Paddington, rather than the front, which could lead to passengers in First Class walking back into Standard !

Walking the full length of the train and clogging up the corridor when people need the space to put their coat on and gather their luggage is antisocial generally, to be honest.

But then people standing up, blocking the aisles and taking 5 minutes fannying around with their bags/coats/suitcases etc can be antisocial as well ! Not to mention those who think sticking their legs out into the aisle is a good idea. In an ideal world everyone would be considerate of everyone else; Personally folk walking through my coach, near the end of the journey, to make a quicker getaway is a very minor concern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But then people standing up, blocking the aisles and taking 5 minutes fannying around with their bags/coats/suitcases etc can be antisocial as well ! Not to mention those who think sticking their legs out into the aisle is a good idea. In an ideal world everyone would be considerate of everyone else; Personally folk walking through my coach, near the end of the journey, to make a quicker getaway is a very minor concern.

Not so much walking through as clogging up the aisle of the front coach.

 

[neilmc]

It's absolutely disgraceful that precious First Class passengers should only get the benefit of being nearest to the exits at London termini. Trains heading to northern terminals such as Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow should be made to turn at a triangle to give the First Class passengers the full benefit of their ridiculously-priced ticket! And at intermediate through stations the First Class portion should always stop nearest the exits even if this means second-class passengers having to jump down on the ballast and walk up the ramp at the end of the platform!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's absolutely disgraceful that precious First Class passengers should only get the benefit of being nearest to the exits at London termini. Trains heading to northern terminals such as Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow should be made to turn at a triangle to give the First Class passengers the full benefit of their ridiculously-priced ticket! And at intermediate through stations the First Class portion should always stop nearest the exits even if this means second-class passengers having to jump down on the ballast and walk up the ramp at the end of the platform!

What's wrong with premium passengers being afforded a quicker exit for the extra they have paid?

 

[Snow1964]

The Southern region used to apply some odd local rules on this where multiple units had first class scattered along the coupled units, and platforms were short

Basically at some stations the last door in the platform was in a first class section, so anyone walking forward was able to use it. But the introduction of power doors killed lot of these oddities, especially where doors only open in whole units, not maximum number of carriages in platform.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's absolutely disgraceful that precious First Class passengers should only get the benefit of being nearest to the exits at London termini. Trains heading to northern terminals such as Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow should be made to turn at a triangle to give the First Class passengers the full benefit of their ridiculously-priced ticket! And at intermediate through stations the First Class portion should always stop nearest the exits even if this means second-class passengers having to jump down on the ballast and walk up the ramp at the end of the platform!

You see (L)NER have thought of this with the provision of the High Level Bridge

 

[jon0844]

It's absolutely disgraceful that precious First Class passengers should only get the benefit of being nearest to the exits at London termini. Trains heading to northern terminals such as Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow should be made to turn at a triangle to give the First Class passengers the full benefit of their ridiculously-priced ticket! And at intermediate through stations the First Class portion should always stop nearest the exits even if this means second-class passengers having to jump down on the ballast and walk up the ramp at the end of the platform!

Bloody hell - first class has to go somewhere and in the middle of the train isn't usually wise.

Having at the London End might give an advantage there but what about the other end? You have the longest walk when you arrive, and the longest walk when you're starting back to London.

Then location really is irrelevant. It would just mean people doing the same thing in Manchester, Edinburgh or wherever instead.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's absolutely disgraceful that precious First Class passengers should only get the benefit of being nearest to the exits at London termini. Trains heading to northern terminals such as Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow should be made to turn at a triangle to give the First Class passengers the full benefit of their ridiculously-priced ticket! And at intermediate through stations the First Class portion should always stop nearest the exits even if this means second-class passengers having to jump down on the ballast and walk up the ramp at the end of the platform!

That’s unfair, surely as well as a turning triangle they could just shunt the first class cars into the middle of the train for any intermediate calls where stations have central entrances?

 

[mmh]

How do people cope with aircraft layouts where lesser passengers must walk through premium accommodation to get to their seats?

I suspect a tiny number of the premium passengers get annoyed, a tiny number of the premium passengers like the opportunity for the lesser passengers to witness the "opulent luxury," some will be in both camps, but the vast majority don't care. Just like on trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do people cope with aircraft layouts where lesser passengers must walk through premium accommodation to get to their seats?

I suspect a tiny number of the premium passengers get annoyed, a tiny number of the premium passengers like the opportunity for the lesser passengers to witness the "opulent luxury," some will be in both camps, but the vast majority don't care. Just like on trains.

On aircraft generally economy passengers are not allowed forward until premium passengers have had chance to gather their stuff and alight.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unfortunately the "tight connection to elsewhere" wears a bit thin when the movement forward begins on the WCML before even Watford Junction, with the eager beaver set helping themselves to the frontmost seats by Wembley claiming "It's only for a minute", and queueing in the aisle such that the passengers in the front coach cannot even stand up until well after the train stops.

This was very common in pre Pendolino days, but I must say I rarely see it now.

How do people cope with aircraft layouts where lesser passengers must walk through premium accommodation to get to their seats?

I suspect a tiny number of the premium passengers get annoyed, a tiny number of the premium passengers like the opportunity for the lesser passengers to witness the "opulent luxury," some will be in both camps, but the vast majority don't care. Just like on trains.

The premium accommodation (Alan Bennett Class) passengers are in the lounge relaxing with their Champagne when the ‘Working’ Class passengers are strapped into their seats. And at the other end, they are out first. No chance of mixing with the peasants.

 

[mmh]

This was very common in pre Pendolino days, but I must say I rarely see it now.




The premium accommodation (Alan Bennett Class) passengers are in the lounge relaxing with their Champagne when the ‘Working’ Class passengers are strapped into their seats. And at the other end, they are out first. No chance of mixing with the peasants.

Ah yes, the only way to travel if you've got more brass than sense. The whole problem could be solved if we give up this idea of Great British Railways and go for Yorkshire Rail instead!

Which reminds me of a travel bit by Victoria Wood.

"Instead of going Inter City I flew down to London on the famous Manchester Shuttle. It's rather an old aircraft, I had to sit next to the rear gunner. And the flying time's so short you don't get a movie, just a stewardess flicking very fast through the Bunty"

 

[181]

The Southern region used to apply some odd local rules on this where multiple units had first class scattered along the coupled units, and platforms were short

Basically at some stations the last door in the platform was in a first class section, so anyone walking forward was able to use it. But the introduction of power doors killed lot of these oddities, especially where doors only open in whole units, not maximum number of carriages in platform.

I only occasionally travelled on 4-VEPs and 4-GIGs in the rush hour, but the impression in my memory from when I did is that it was normal for second class passengers to stand in the corridor outside the first class compartments, just because that's where there was room.

 

[Taunton]

First and standard class "ends" only came along in the late 1960s with Mk 2 stock. Before that the first class provision was scattered along the train, and indeed there were as many Composite vehicles with both classes as wholly firsts. This was of course with compartment stock, where the side corridor was for anyone going up and down the train. Given that the legalese about not occupying first class doubtless dates back to those times, I wonder when it was decided that it relates to walking up and down, as opposed to occupying seats, as well - and indeed if there ever was any legal change.