Rules on alighting from train at 1st class doors?

[tornado]

I would like to know the official rules on alighting from a train with a standard class ticket at a door which is unambiguously in the 1st class section i.e. sandwiched between two 1st class coaches.

Where this is useful is if 1st class is at the buffers end arriving at a London terminus and you have to make a tight connection to elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would like to know the official rules on alighting from a train with a standard class ticket at a door which is unambiguously in the 1st class section i.e. sandwiched between two 1st class coaches.

Where this is useful is if 1st class is at the buffers end arriving at a London terminus and you have to make a tight connection to elsewhere.

Any part of First Class is still First Class, so you have occupied First Class accommodation to do this (during the time you were waiting to alight), thus requiring a First Class ticket.

Arguably if you do it after the train stops and the doors open you're just passing through, but what would be the point in doing that?

I have heard of RPIs getting people on this, though it won't be common.

 

[tornado]

Any part of First Class is still First Class, so you have occupied First Class accommodation to do this (during the time you were waiting to alight), thus requiring a First Class ticket.

Arguably if you do it after the train stops and the doors open you're just passing through, but what would be the point in doing that?

I have heard of RPIs getting people on this, though it won't be common.

So if I walk continuously back and forth along the carriage whilst the train is still moving I'll be ok?

I would also add that of course this sort of behaviour is somewhat discourteous to 1st class passengers, so it was really with regard to if a train was running very late, missing last connection of the day etc.

 

[robbeech]

If you have a tight connection you could always mention this to the guard (if there is one) and ask them if you’d be allowed to move from the part of the train you’ve occupied for the journey to the most suitable part of the train shortly before arrival. Any reasonable guard would allow this as it is likely also in the interest of their employer that you make your connection as this may result in no delay repay.

 

[Taunton]

Unfortunately the "tight connection to elsewhere" wears a bit thin when the movement forward begins on the WCML before even Watford Junction, with the eager beaver set helping themselves to the frontmost seats by Wembley claiming "It's only for a minute", and queueing in the aisle such that the passengers in the front coach cannot even stand up until well after the train stops.

And then what do the carriages themselves think. As the Rev Awdry has helpfully pointed out :

Agnes is a deep-voiced and proud first-class carriage who looks down on the others, who are third-class ... sometimes ... third-class passengers were allowed to travel in Agnes, to the latter's ire

 

[jon0844]

I would like to know the official rules on alighting from a train with a standard class ticket at a door which is unambiguously in the 1st class section i.e. sandwiched between two 1st class coaches.

Where this is useful is if 1st class is at the buffers end arriving at a London terminus and you have to make a tight connection to elsewhere.

I find it rather rude, given the occasions I've been in first class and the aisles fill up with people who have walked through to alight - complete with bags etc - as you're trying to get up and get your own stuff ready.

In reality though, nothing is likely to happen. I am surprised how early some people begin to walk through, meaning they're standing around for quite a while.

 

[Peterthegreat]

On some East Coast Main Line trains in the past the door in the buffet was sometimes locked on the approach to London to prevent walk throughs.

 

[AlterEgo]

I find it rather rude, given the occasions I've been in first class and the aisles fill up with people who have walked through to alight - complete with bags etc - as you're trying to get up and get your own stuff ready.

In reality though, nothing is likely to happen. I am surprised how early some people begin to walk through, meaning they're standing around for quite a while.

Pre-pandemic you'd get the Watford Junction crowd on Virgin Trains, absolutely desperate people just bursting to make one Tube earlier. Haven't seen that for a while now!

 

[miklcct]

One of the points of setting up First Class carriage is to place them at a strategic locations closer to the exit to create a value premium. This is the reason why the First Class on KCR East Rail was located at the 4th carriage northbound / 9th carriage southbound on the 12-car trains used between 1996 and 2022 because that carriage is closest to the exit at most of the stations. Because the First Class carriage is blocked from standard class carriages (requiring validating a smart card to get access, which will result in First Class fare being charged), this may result in uneven passenger distribution in the two unconnected parts of standard class carriages (1st-3rd / 5th-12th carriages northbound, or 1st-8th / 10th-12th carriages southbound).

Therefore, I believe it is not right for Standard Class passengers to occupy First Class carriage on arrival of the station, making the First Class carriage unnecessarily crowded.

 

[wellhouse]

As a rule, when eager to disembark promptly, I've found it to be far more useful to be first at the nearest door than to be umpteenth at the front door, and to be well informed whether the platform is on the left or the right.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Don't know how often it happens now at Paddington but certainly when I travelled on HSTs to Padd, mostly when I was in 1st on a weekend upgrade (or used the weekend upgrade in the voucher book, remember those?) every time a bunch of passengers would walk through from standard to first at about Royal Oak to get off closest to the buffers then march down to the tube.

Only time I've got off in first class on a standard ticket is on a railtour, pretty common at my local station where only the first class coaches are in the platform

 

[bramling]

As a rule, when eager to disembark promptly, I've found it to be far more useful to be first at the nearest door than to be umpteenth at the front door, and to be well informed whether the platform is on the left or the right.

Hitchin is quite conspicuous for this, people are up from their seats as soon as the train leaves Stevenage, 5 mins running time. Can only assume it is primarily those being picked up and reduces the chance of getting caught up in congestion leaving the car park. As soon as one does it, plenty follow.

 

[Jimini]

Don't know how often it happens now at Paddington but certainly when I travelled on HSTs to Padd, mostly when I was in 1st on a weekend upgrade (or used the weekend upgrade in the voucher book, remember those?) every time a bunch of passengers would walk through from standard to first at about Royal Oak to get off closest to the buffers then march down to the tube.

Yep that still very much happens!

 

[krus_aragon]

I would like to know the official rules on alighting from a train with a standard class ticket at a door which is unambiguously in the 1st class section i.e. sandwiched between two 1st class coaches.

Where this is useful is if 1st class is at the buffers end arriving at a London terminus and you have to make a tight connection to elsewhere.

Per the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

15.2. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.

15.5. If you travel in first class accommodation without a valid first class Ticket or permission from staff to occupy that accommodation, Condition 9 will apply.

...

9.2. If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked and the conditions set out in Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:
9.2.1. To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see Condition 10 below); or
9.2.2. To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be
entitled to any discounts or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on; or
9.2.3. To report you for prosecution.

 

[dk1]

Back in Anglia Railways days a swing barrier was installed in the RFM corridor & catering staff would shut it &/or physically block this themselves on the approach to Liverpool Street to prevent this annoying practice.

 

[yorkie]

Where a train is running late I have occasionally done this and never experienced any problems.

One of the points of setting up First Class carriage is to place them at a strategic locations closer to the exit to create a value premium....

I don't think this will be stated anywhere (I assume you read this on a forum posting) and it generally only applies on selected TOCs, at London Terminals only.

It certainly doesn't apply on LNER at York or Leeds or many other places; on the contrary, if I am in a rush when travelling 1st I will walk through standard.

 

[43066]

Where a train is running late I have occasionally done this and never experienced any problems.

I’m sure I’ve read about incidents on here in the past of people being challenged (and penalty fared) at London Victoria for moving into first to alight from busy trains. Strictly speaking if you’re in first at all without a valid ticket you are in breach of by-laws, albeit a particularly petty enforcement of the rules.

 

[Towers]

Where a train is running late I have occasionally done this and never experienced any problems.

I don't think this will be stated anywhere (I assume you read this on a forum posting) and it generally only applies on selected TOCs, at London Terminals only.

It certainly doesn't apply on LNER at York or Leeds or many other places; on the contrary, if I am in a rush when travelling 1st I will walk through standard.

It's worth noting of course that you are entirely permitted to walk through standard when travelling with a first class ticket; the same doesn't apply the other way around!

It's completely understandable that it grates when the 'posh end' is invaded for the last ten minutes of a journey, and IMHO it is worthy of the attention of staff in tackling it. The reality though is that it can be an uphill struggle, just as it can be when attempting to move standard ticket holders out of first on busy trains departing in the evening peak (*or used to be, when busy trains and an evening peak were both a thing!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's worth noting of course that you are entirely permitted to walk through standard when travelling with a first class ticket; the same doesn't apply the other way around!

You can walk through it if you want, on some trains it's how you reach Standard. What you are not supposed to do is loiter.

 

[Towers]

You can walk through it if you want, on some trains it's how you reach Standard. What you are not supposed to do is loiter.

Indeed; but heading in to hang about prior to arrival, in order to be first off, is most definitely in the latter category!

 

[Taunton]

Quite some years ago, CIG stock days, boarding at Victoria for Brighton some could be seen walking right down to the front of the 12-car formation, to be first off at Brighton. Unfortunately when we got to Three Bridges there had been a blockage ahead and we were diverted via Littlehampton, reverse, and then along the coast towards Brighton. This front coach set then made a right nuisance of themselves working right forward through the whole train, banging people and luggage as they went, to be at what was now the Brighton end. Alas, when we got to Hove it was round the curve to Preston Park, stop, and reverse back into the main platforms. With them all now at the back again ...

Did we laugh

 

[ess]

Hitchin is quite conspicuous for this, people are up from their seats as soon as the train leaves Stevenage, 5 mins running time. Can only assume it is primarily those being picked up and reduces the chance of getting caught up in congestion leaving the car park. As soon as one does it, plenty follow.

Hitchin is one of those ridiculous stations where the exit is at one end of the station with the car park alongside but not accessible except through one set of barriers at the exit. So if you're in the last carriages then you have to walk all the way along the platform, out the gates, and then all the way back again to your car. Easy to fix with another exit down the platform

 

[island]

Under railway byelaw 19 it is an offence to remain in any seat, berth, or part of a train where a notice indicates it is reserved for holders of tickets of a specified class, unless one is the holder of such a ticket.

Enforcement of this with respect to the described scenario is rather rare – as mentioned above, though, it's best to be first at any door rather than umpteenth at the front door.

 

[Mag_seven]

Back in Anglia Railways days a swing barrier was installed in the RFM corridor & catering staff would shut it &/or physically block this themselves on the approach to Liverpool Street to prevent this annoying practice.

They did this on GWR HSTs for a while too.

Also, prior to Reading remodelling sometimes RPIs would set up a barrier at the London end of the main London bound platform at Reading to prevent (the much maligned on these forums) "Reading Commuters" from boarding the first class coaches to stand in the first class vestibules.

 

[HSP 2]

How does this work on TPE 185s that have a first class door in the DMCL with a section of standard class seats before the first class, along with the access toilet.

 

[1955LR]

Under railway byelaw 19 it is an offence to remain in any seat, berth, or part of a train where a notice indicates it is reserved for holders of tickets of a specified class, unless one is the holder of such a ticket.

Enforcement of this with respect to the described scenario is rather rare – as mentioned above, though, it's best to be first at any door rather than umpteenth at the front door.

What is the position if staff at Birmingham International, tell one to board at any door and sit in any available seat including 1st, if travelling to New street on a service terminating there.? Often done especially if large crowds coming from NEC. Is the say so of station staff good enough?

 

[Towers]

What is the position if staff at Birmingham International, tell one to board at any door and sit in any available seat including 1st, if travelling to New street on a service terminating there.? Often done especially if large crowds coming from NEC. Is the say so of station staff good enough?

Grey area!!

"Use all available doors" is (or was) a common cry on busy platforms, generally it wasn't meant to imply that the usual rules weren't in force once you were on board. A decent Guard/TM would make appropriate announcements to clarify the situation one way or the other in those circumstances.

 

[jon0844]

What is the position if staff at Birmingham International, tell one to board at any door and sit in any available seat including 1st, if travelling to New street on a service terminating there.? Often done especially if large crowds coming from NEC. Is the say so of station staff good enough?

I am sure first class can be declassified in such incidences, but it does obviously have an impact in that first class ticket holders can ask for a partial refund.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2021 ==

Grey area!!

"Use all available doors" is (or was) a common cry on busy platforms, generally it wasn't meant to imply that the usual rules weren't in force once you were on board. A decent Guard/TM would make appropriate announcements to clarify the situation one way or the other in those circumstances.

Indeed. It's a bit different boarding in first class and walking through than the other way around where people walk through and stand around (and, let's be honest, many will sit) 10-15 miles from the terminus, then hinder others from getting up and ready to alight.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Think it is an archaic practise to still have every train with the first class at the London end, it is OK if you are going to London but if you are going to Glasgow you have a long jog down P1/2 if you have a tight connection for a local, walking the full length of the standard class section after Motherwell gets you equally hard states from the Pax in these coaches

 

[Bletchleyite]

Think it is an archaic practise to still have every train with the first class at the London end, it is OK if you are going to London but if you are going to Glasgow you have a long jog down P1/2 if you have a tight connection for a local, walking the full length of the standard class section after Motherwell gets you equally hard states from the Pax in these coaches

Walking the full length of the train and clogging up the corridor when people need the space to put their coat on and gather their luggage is antisocial generally, to be honest. If you want to be in the front coach, book using a site with a seat selector and pick a seat in that coach.

If unexpectedly delayed and so on a tight connection it might be necessary on occasions, but commuters doing it every day really should plan their journey better. If the couple of minutes or so it takes to walk 240m (at most) make your journey too tight, get an earlier train or choose where you sit more sensibly.