Rugby Union

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Heineken Cup Final

Saracens 6...Toulon 23

Something for Jonny Wilkinson to remember as he kicked two conversions, two penalties and added a drop-goal for good luck in his final match.
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Welsh Trial Match

Wales Probables 55...Wales Possibles 7

Centre Jonathan Davies scored three of the eight Probables tries in this somewhat expected victory.

 

[richw]

Tomorrow sees England vs Barbarians, as well as the county championship finals. I will be up at twickenham cheering on Cornwall.

 

[Hadders]

And today sees Northampton Saints take on Saracens in the Premiership Final at Twickenham.

Come on You Saints!

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Yes some good matches this weekend.

 

[Hadders]

Premiership Final Result:

Northampton Saints 24 Saracens 20 (after extra time)

 

[Greenback]

I enjoyed the highlights of the English final and the Rabo. I wasn't very impressed with the Welsh 'trial' on Friday but at least it gave the players a run out, the fans could go and watch something a bit different, and money was raised for good causes. So I won't be too churlish about it!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

New Zealand 20...England 15

In what seemed to be a fate-decreed defeat, similar to the match against France last season, a very late New Zealand try by Conrad Smith saw the England hopes of avoiding defeat dashed.

Freddie Burns, as the fourth choice positional player, took his elevation to the England side well.
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New Zealand 28...England 27

New Zealand now take the three-match series, but both this match and the previous one were by only very narrow margins.

 

[Amberley54]

New Zealand 20...England 15

In what seemed to be a fate-decreed defeat, similar to the match against France last season, a very late New Zealand try by Conrad Smith saw the England hopes of avoiding defeat dashed.

Freddie Burns, as the fourth choice positional player, took his elevation to the England side well.
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New Zealand 28...England 27

New Zealand now take the three-match series, but both this match and the previous one were by only very narrow margins.

Yes, but NZ always seem to be able to up their game at key times of a match. Still plenty of positives for England to take forward.

 

[Greenback]

England are on the right track, unlike Wales, who are 28-9 down at half time...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

England are on the right track, unlike Wales, who are 28-9 down at half time...

38-16 at full time, but the matter of five tries to one is a more telling storyline.
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New Zealand 36...England 13

New Zealand win the series 3-0, but as the scoreline shows, there was a wider gap in ability than the first two matches revealed. Julian Savea will be very pleased with his-trick of tries in the match.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

South Africa 55...Scotland 6

Most definitely a match of two halves as the score was only 19-6 at half-time, in this, the final match of the tour.

However, there is no getting away from the fact that Scotland conceded no less than eight tries in the match.

 

[Greenback]

Scotland did better than I expected. But then, it wasn't a full strength SA side

 

[Butts]

Scotland did better than I expected. But then, it wasn't a full strength SA side

Are you taking the p*ss - did you expect them to hit "three figures"

 

[Greenback]

I expected Wales to lose by three figures, so I am being consistent!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I expected Wales to lose by three figures, so I am being consistent!

With rugby in Wales in mind, I see that the former Wales wing, Gerald Davies, who joined the WRU board in 2005 has announced that he will not be seeking re-election to the WRU board again.

Is their some current unpleasantness in the Welsh corridors of rugby power ?

 

[Greenback]

There is a lot of unpleasantness in Welsh rugby, and has been for some time. It depends on your point of view, but the crux of the matter is that the professional regions want more money, more power and more control over the game. Unfortunately, in the years since they were formed, they have not been very successful either on the pitch, or financially, so it seems strange to allow failing organisations to flourish. Some say they should be disbanded and the whole set up started from fresh.

The WRU is not blameless by any stretch of the imagination. They set the regions up in the first place, so they must share the blame for the failure. They are artificial constructs, with no real geographical identity. In fact, it would be fair to call them superclubs, as only the Ospreys have made any real effort to create a new identity. Meanwhile, the Blues are Cardiff, the Dragons are Newport and, around here, the Scarlets will always be Llanelli until they are dragged kicking and screaming into a proper 'West Wales' region by merging with the Ospreys!

(That last sentence will probably get me a sentence of death at Parc y Scarlets!)

But similarly, Cardiff and Newport should also merge, which would allow four regions as follows:

(South) West Wales (Swansea and West thereof), South Wales (Valleys, Neath Port Talbot and Bridgend), (South) East Wales (Cardiff, Newport and Gwent) and a developmental region like Connacht in north Wales.

None of this will happen of course, as there are too many vested interests in the game.

Most of us fans who just enjoy the sport rather than the politics are thoroughly sick of the infighting, which, on rugby message boards at least, has got very nasty and personal. No good can come out of it, even if things were resolved today there will be a lot of damage done to both sides which may never be repaired fully.

 

[Hadders]

What's happened to Welsh rugby is very sad. I think the root of the problem goes back to when the game turned professional in the 1990's and there not being sufficient money in the game in Wales to sustain a critical mass of professional clubs.

The WRU decided to move to regional teams, based on the successful Irish provincial model. What the WRU didn't consider was that the Irish model had been in use for decades and loyalty to the province sits above club loyalty. This was never going to happen in Wales with artificially created regions.

The WRU are really only interested in the success of the Welsh national team (to be fair they have had some success) but success at regional/club level has been practically non-existent. This is not helped by the pro-12 league being largely uncompetitive and failing to provide sufficient meaningful matches that will attract large crowds. Hopefully the new qualification criteria for the champions cup will see the pro-12 become more competitive.

To make matters worse the success of football in Swansea and Cardiff over recent years has made it harder for rugby to compete.

 

[Greenback]

Pretty much spot on, Hadders, though I'd just add that it's not surprising that the WRU is focused on the Wales national side, as it is that which supports all other rugby in Wales.

The professional regions have not been able to become sustainable organisations financially. It's impossible to be self financing on gates of 6-8,000. Even Heineken Cup fixtures regularly struggle to get 10,000 spectators.

I hope that the new pro 12 qualification will help to make for a more competitive league, at least in terms of more teams having more to play for. We'll see!

 

[Oswyntail]

Rugby Union in Wales was very much like Rugby League in England, with the big clubs confined to a very small area along the south coastal strip (and a small way up the border), in an economically very vulnerable heartland. The biggest asset they had in keeping going was their tradition, which the WRFU threw away. There is simply not enough money to support a Welsh professional game in that small area, and attempts to broaden have failed. It is a miracle that they are producing enough players of quality to put out a national team, let alone a successful one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone remember the cross-code games between Wigan and Bath a goodly number of years ago ? I believe it is hoped that Salford City Reds and Sale Sharks who share the same new stadium are to play a similar game later this year, but am unsure if this will be 40 minutes of the Union code then 40 minutes of the League code or two separate matches.

 

[Greenback]

There's a lot of truth in that too, Oswyntail. The advent of professionalism in rugby union was the death knell for the clubs. Llanelli and Swansea certainly became mired in a financial mess as they rushed to sign expensive players like Frano Botica. Even small village clubs decided to pay their players, even if it was only £50 a week. It was unsustainable, and we are still feeling the effects here now.

The only way it can possibly ever work is to have a small number of professional teams, subsidised by the national team. Unfortunately, the way the regions were set up has more or less ensured that it will fail!
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Does anyone remember the cross-code games between Wigan and Bath a goodly number of years ago ? I believe it is hoped that Salford City Reds and Sale Sharks who share the same new stadium are to play a similar game later this year, but am unsure if this will be 40 minutes of the Union code then 40 minutes of the League code or two separate matches.

I remember them well! In those days the League players were much fitter than their Union counterparts, but I think the gap will have narrowed twenty years later!

I understand that the Salford/Sale game has been put back due to them being unable to find a convenient date. I hope they follow the earlier example and have two matches!

 

[Hadders]

The other thing with the welsh regions is that the pro-12 isn't really the right league for them. They really should be playing with the English clubs.

When the regions came in an agreement was made to not play on Saturday's to avoid clashing with the clubs. Problem is this depresses the crowds further. Who really wants to see Newport play Zebre, or Llanelli play Edinburgh at 7pm on a freezing Friday in January.

Now if the regions played on Saturday afternoons and played teams like Northampton, Bath, Leicester, Harlequins, Saracens etc. I bet there would be some very healthy crowds and very competitive matches.

Sadly, politics dictate it won't happen. I can't see the regions joining the English league and if they did it would cut the Irish, Scots and Italians adrift. There'd also be the issue of relegation to sort too!

 

[Greenback]

The other thing with the welsh regions is that the pro-12 isn't really the right league for them. They really should be playing with the English clubs.

The regions themselves would definitely prefer to be playing English sides! A British Isles league with two divisions could be the answer if there was a will to do it.

When the regions came in an agreement was made to not play on Saturday's to avoid clashing with the clubs. Problem is this depresses the crowds further. Who really wants to see Newport play Zebre, or Llanelli play Edinburgh at 7pm on a freezing Friday in January.

Absolutely, especially when the match is being shown on BBC2 as well!

Now if the regions played on Saturday afternoons and played teams like Northampton, Bath, Leicester, Harlequins, Saracens etc. I bet there would be some very healthy crowds and very competitive matches.

I agree. Though I'd not object to a few Friday night or Sunday matches as in the Aviva.

Sadly, politics dictate it won't happen. I can't see the regions joining the English league and if they did it would cut the Irish, Scots and Italians adrift. There'd also be the issue of relegation to sort too!

There could be a British Isles premier League and a British Isles Championship division. It wouldn't be easy sorting out the promotion and relegation processes, both between the two and between the British Isles Leagues and the national leagues that would be below them, but I'm sure it could be done.

But sadly, I agree that like the Welsh clubs joining the Aviva, it's very unlikely to happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The WRU is not blameless by any stretch of the imagination. They set the regions up in the first place, so they must share the blame for the failure. They are artificial constructs, with no real geographical identity.

What is the truth behind the story that Sam Warburton may not have a club to play with in the coming season ? Is the WRU and its internal politics anything to do with this quandary ?

 

[Hadders]

What is the truth behind the story that Sam Warburton may not have a club to play with in the coming season ? Is the WRU and its internal politics anything to do with this quandary ?

Sam Warburton signed a central contract with the WRU. The WRU were hoping to sign up 6 of their star players but so far only Sam Warburton has agreed. This means the WRU have 'control' over when and who he plays for and even what position he plays. The WRU said they intended to let him play for Cardiff Blues.

The Welsh regions won't allow anyone under a central contract to play for them hence he hasn't got a club to play for next season.

The whole WRU/Region/Club issue in Wales is a joke. There isn't even a formal participation agreement in place between the WRU and the Regions (the agreement covers central funding/player release for the Welsh national team among other things). The regions are saying that if this isn't sorted quickly they will be forced to off load players.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

After a 6-year spell at Biarritz, flanker Magnus Lund has returned to Sale Sharks.

 

[Butts]

Anyone see the "Sevens" at the Commonwealth Games staged at Ibrox of all places.

Excellent win by South Africa inflicting the All Blacks first defeat in this genre for many a games and ensuring the Gold Medal heading to Capetown.

This sport is to be introduced as an Olympic Event in Rio by all accounts.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Yes - the Rugby sevens have been a huge hit at the Gems - real sport at Ibrox at last!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Arriva Premiership

London Welsh 0...Exeter Chiefs 52

With recent player purchase in mind, I was interested to see how London Welsh would fare in their first match of the season, with the added incentive of having the home team advantage. To go in at half time 0-17 down was not an irretrievable position that could be repaired by a strong second-half performance, but the opposite occurred with the Exeter Chiefs raising their game in the second-half and scoring a match total of no less than seven tries.

 

[Greenback]

I can't see a bright season ahead for London Welsh. Despite their signings in the off season, I don't think that their squad is good enough to survive in the Premiership. Ollie Barkley looked a bit past it when he played for the Scarlets last season too.