+1. Incredible that people are asking if someone could be guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence. Peak indeed.
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Rucksack Wearer's Liability
- Thread starter Mutant Lemming
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+1. Incredible that people are asking if someone could be guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence. Peak indeed.
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RailUK Forums
I was not going to post on this thread....until I read all of your posting.
A rucksack, when worn, is at a height where it can cause problems for other travellers as someone being struck by such an item could well be hit in the face. Small trolley cases when used correctly do not normally inflict physical damage in that region stated before.
I would venture that on-train wearing of such rucksacks is something that should cease. Why cannot people take off the rucksack and carry it when on board, as that way, they can see other passengers and be able to take care.
How dare you refer to "the evil elderly" with walking sticks. Is there one rule for you with your rucksack and another for those elderly citizens who need the assistance of walking sticks...
Those wheely cases are a massive pain in the arse. People stop right by doors/at the bottom of escalators to extend the handle and they trail behind them out of the line of sight.
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I totally agree with you on that. Very well said. A bit of consideration and being spatially aware is needed.
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At least if someone has a big rucksack you can see it easily when looking where you are going. If some idiot is trailing their laptop two or three feet behind them on the floor you can't.
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And lets face it people do this, they trail something the size of laptop behind them.
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Class 170101
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I think the bags on wheels are more dangerous than rucksacks.
From a psychological point of view shops put less popular products in the eye line in the hope people will buy them and conversely more popular products elsewhere towards top or bottoms of shelves.
Therefore it would suggest people are looking along a particular sight line which would imply things high and low are more likely to cause accidents, eg suitcases on wheels.
I do however agree with the coments about smartphones and people's field of vision becoming narrower and shorter. Has the latest smartphone carze become a problem in stations yet?
Rich McLean
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Where ever posssible, if I have to take a rucksack on a train, I stow it either in the overhead racks, or in the luggage rack (especially on voyagers, where it won't fit above). I will carry it by hand if possible
On trains which are wedged wall to wall, I will carry it where possible, and put it down beside me in the vestibule.
On trains which are wedged wall to wall, I will carry it where possible, and put it down beside me in the vestibule.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I will second those sensible comments that your posting makes about the very large rucksacks.
LOL, it's a problem to have a rucksack, it's a problem to have a wheely case.
People travel by rail and take luggage. There is no problem unless you want to see one.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I have the solution to your problem. Take the rucksack off on the platform, prior to boarding the train in an area that you can check that allows you to do this without inconveniencing passengers on the platform, carry the rucksack in front of you when boarding and moving along the train where your forward looking eyesight can see people in front of you and when you disembark, put your rucksack back on again, noting the care and attention needed that I have stated earlier in the posting.
Courtesy to others is something well recommended but unfortunately, some of the postings on this thread reveal an unfortunate selfishness in tone....:roll:
trainophile
Established Member
It's not just luggage. I often get "encroached upon" while sitting in an aisle seat, by some enormous bloke who has chosen the seat across the aisle and is taking his weighty overcoat off prior to settling down.
They seem to feel the need to stand right next to "my" seat, with their back to me, and use extravagant gestures to shrug their coat off, very often swiping my head with either the coat or an elbow. The stupid thing is, they don't even realise they are doing it.
They seem to feel the need to stand right next to "my" seat, with their back to me, and use extravagant gestures to shrug their coat off, very often swiping my head with either the coat or an elbow. The stupid thing is, they don't even realise they are doing it.
You might like to know that some of us are spatially incompetent, and no amount of looking properly will assist us in judging distances or picking out a person from the rest of the enviroment. This is why I don't drive a car. In my case the perceivable universe is way less than half a metre away from my body, and just going down the stairs can be quite a bit of guesswork.How about understanding the concept of personal space, and try standing more than a few inches from another person where possible. It annoys me the number of seemingly spatially incompetant people there are around, the sort who just keep walking towards you, until they are literally a foot away, then it's "oops sorry mate didn't see you there" (because you weren't bloody looking properly, that's why). It is as though the edge of the visible universe is no more than half a metre away from their body, and no signal can be sent or received outside of that domain.
And then there's always that one person who wants to make me feel ashamed for being invisibly disabled in public.
And why exactly should I do that? I have no idea if the train is going to be empty, moderately busy, or rammed. If it's empty, I can walk to an empty seat and (perhaps surprisingly to you) manage not to whack anyone with my backpack. Even if it's moderately busy I'll be able to stand in the vestibule without knocking anybody flying.
That works out a damn sight better than looking like a wally, taking off my bag, walking forward through a clear area, then putting it back on, surely? If you're going to a busy station (or any crowded area) you have to expect people to stand near you, and shock-horror people's items lightly brushing against you!
Likewise, if someone else has a bag on, I'll be aware that I might take a minor knock - these things are soft, so it's not going to hurt very much! It's simply part and parcel of the fact that public transport means interacting with members of the public.
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Bear in mind that what we are discussing isn't the occasional light knock that might occur while someone walks past a little too close, but rather the 'knock you clean off your feet' body blow that I've seen delivered when someone suddenly turns around while wearing a huge rucksack.
The former is par for the course, the latter is not.
trainophile
Established Member
Some guards could be a bit more careful when they breeze down the aisle, oblivious to their swinging ticket machine getting perilously close to some seated passengers' heads!
I would have thought that would be part of their basic training?
As a Backpack user I always carry it in front or to the side in crowded or confined spaces, I find it easier. However in the last 72 hours I have witnessed:-
1. On a crowded train , back pack not removed until a seat was found, then put back on to move further down the train
2. At a Mini Cab rank, getting into the rear seat without removing the backpack, sitting on the edge of seat door closed and then attempting to remove it
3. In a Pub, popular with walkers, cleaning boots, putting plastic covers on the footwear, entering the crowded pub not removing back pack, jogged/knocked two customers both who spilt some drink, found a vacant table and sat throughout lunchtime with back pack unremoved.
We seem to agree that there is a section of the community who are unaware that they are using one or so insecure that they cannot be separated from it!
1. On a crowded train , back pack not removed until a seat was found, then put back on to move further down the train
2. At a Mini Cab rank, getting into the rear seat without removing the backpack, sitting on the edge of seat door closed and then attempting to remove it
3. In a Pub, popular with walkers, cleaning boots, putting plastic covers on the footwear, entering the crowded pub not removing back pack, jogged/knocked two customers both who spilt some drink, found a vacant table and sat throughout lunchtime with back pack unremoved.
We seem to agree that there is a section of the community who are unaware that they are using one or so insecure that they cannot be separated from it!
Silver Cobra
Member
Reading this thread, I remember that there are posters on the Underground regarding etiquette with backpacks (as part of the 'Travel Better London' campaign). Here it is:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YF0IwUVpwgs/VOXi1MZmTJI/AAAAAAAACs4/G7DO3GkRRC8/s1600/BACKPACK.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YF0IwUVpwgs/VOXi1MZmTJI/AAAAAAAACs4/G7DO3GkRRC8/s1600/BACKPACK.jpg
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Reading this thread, I remember that there are posters on the Underground regarding etiquette with backpacks (as part of the 'Travel Better London' campaign). Here it is:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YF0IwUVpwgs/VOXi1MZmTJI/AAAAAAAACs4/G7DO3GkRRC8/s1600/BACKPACK.jpg
A picture saves a thousand words...
Yup, spot on..
How about understanding the concept of personal space, and try standing more than a few inches from another person where possible. It annoys me the number of seemingly spatially incompetant people there are around, the sort who just keep walking towards you, until they are literally a foot away, then it's "oops sorry mate didn't see you there" (because you weren't bloody looking properly, that's why). It is as though the edge of the visible universe is no more than half a metre away from their body, and no signal can be sent or received outside of that domain.
Agreed...but on the Tube in rush hour there is no such thing. I must admit (not as I always carry it) that in extreme cases I've found a rap round the back of the knees with my Samsonite briefcase rather gives the errant rucksack wearer, who is taking up about three times as much space and bashing everyone, a certain message...
Agreed also - they can be a serious trip hazard as they are out of the normal line of sight.
While I don't accept your rucksack comment you are spot on with respect to umbrellas. Females in particular don't seem to realise that their brolly is on direct eyeline with taller males. On several occasions only my specs have saved me from having a brolly spoke in the eye. Worse still they don't even apologise but seem to think that it's your fault for being in their way...
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
TBH I think the use of an umbrella in a crowded area is highly antisocial for that reason. In somewhere like central London on a weekday in the peak, there isn't enough room for anyone to have their own square metre of space (approximately) which is required to use one safely.
Get a decent breathable waterproof jacket (they can be obtained in subdued colours so you can still look presentable if desired, rather than just bright colours for use up a mountain) and put it away to be used when it's quiet.
On occasions I must admit I have taken to refusing to move out of the path of an umbrella being thrust at me by someone shorter not paying attention. They invariably clout me in the shoulder which doesn't do any damage - but rarely if ever does the owner apologise.
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LOL, it's a problem to have a rucksack, it's a problem to have a wheely case.
People travel by rail and take luggage. There is no problem unless you want to see one.
Ha ha. True. Sorry mate, you are of course correct.
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I agree with that to Paul. I tend to use a Rucksack but if I am in a crowded area it is carried in front of me, not flung around behind. Some people really do have no spacial awareness though.
I had a mate with Dispraxia for example. He really struggled with stuff like this.
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Mutant Lemming
Established Member
I suppose as opposed to the usual 'rant at selfish passengers ' (which we all can be at times) I should come up with a solution. Rucksacks with a more menacing girth should have sensors similar to those a car has when it gets too close to things. This will not only advise the wearer if they are too close to someone but also provide them with a warning if someone is attempting to steal something from their rucksack.
trainophile
Established Member
You can tell this forum is mainly populated by young to middle-aged fit blokes!
There's no way I could go on one of my fortnightly to monthly 2-night mini breaks* with a rucksack, whereas a small wheely case is ideal. I do try to be considerate with it though!
*This is on top of my fortnightly trips to Southport, and I use a little case for those too, as my flat is a mile from the station.
There's no way I could go on one of my fortnightly to monthly 2-night mini breaks* with a rucksack, whereas a small wheely case is ideal. I do try to be considerate with it though!
*This is on top of my fortnightly trips to Southport, and I use a little case for those too, as my flat is a mile from the station.
There there should be a law banning people from being within some many inches of someone else they don't know. That would soon make the trains less crowded.How about understanding the concept of personal space, and try standing more than a few inches from another person where possible. It annoys me the number of seemingly spatially incompetant people there are around, the sort who just keep walking towards you, until they are literally a foot away, then it's "oops sorry mate didn't see you there" (because you weren't bloody looking properly, that's why). It is as though the edge of the visible universe is no more than half a metre away from their body, and no signal can be sent or received outside of that domain.
Unfortunately it would mean less people would be able to use the trains during peak rush hour
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trainophile
Established Member
Nearly got clocked on the head by a large ticket machine this afternoon. If I had been dozing in my aisle seat instead of paying attention I wouldn't have been aware of it approaching, and able to dodge out of the way. It was when the guard swung round to check the ticket of the person across the aisle.
I did notice on my first train of the day, a Northern Pacer, that the guard had a very neat machine less than half the size of the one I had to avoid later on (no TOC details, I wouldn't want to get anyone in trouble). I wonder why these aren't issued as standard.
Apologies for digression from rucksacks, I had to duck a couple of those today too!
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It might have been one of the machines under discussion here.
In order to be found guilty of a criminal act in the UK one has to have both the actus reus and the mens rea.
As I'm sure many of you know, this is th guilty act and the guilty mind. Therefore in order for a successful criminal prosecution for shoving someone under a train with a rucksack, intent to commit the crime must be shown to exist beyond a reasonable doubt.
In a civil case guilt has to be established on a balance of probability.
As I'm sure many of you know, this is th guilty act and the guilty mind. Therefore in order for a successful criminal prosecution for shoving someone under a train with a rucksack, intent to commit the crime must be shown to exist beyond a reasonable doubt.
In a civil case guilt has to be established on a balance of probability.
I use a backpack when I am commuting, there are a few things I do to try to minimise the risk of my backpack causing a nuisance to others. Of course there will be times when even this isn't sufficient to stop me causing inconvenience or bumping into others, but that tends to be a rare occurrence.
Although, as it is a smaller (35 litre) pack it is easier to achieve than if it were larger one.
The main thing is carrying it on one shoulder, which limits the blind spot between what I can see and where it is. It also means I can slip it off my shoulder and down my arm without taking up much more space than just holding it (no need to flail arms around), this means I can carry it onto a train safe in the knowledge that I can drop it to my feet if the train is ramed or easily manoeuvre it to an overhead rack.
However, for the vast majority of time I would argue that it is less inconvenient to others than wheely bags, which even if you aware of them (which I generally am), causes their owners to stop at pinch points such as the top and bottom of steps to pick up and put down their bag. I accept that they need to do this, but what they don't need to do is to do so right at the top/bottom leaving those behind them with little chance to get around them.
This is exacerbated when there is a clear space less than two metres from them which they could pause in leaving the steps free for others.
[RANT] It is worse still when people just stop right at the top/bottom of steps, or think that if a good place on a platform to wait. It is not, wait clear of where people are highly likely to want to walk. [/RANT]. (OK, there are times when that is not possible due to overcrowding, but mostly there is no need to do so)
Although, as it is a smaller (35 litre) pack it is easier to achieve than if it were larger one.
The main thing is carrying it on one shoulder, which limits the blind spot between what I can see and where it is. It also means I can slip it off my shoulder and down my arm without taking up much more space than just holding it (no need to flail arms around), this means I can carry it onto a train safe in the knowledge that I can drop it to my feet if the train is ramed or easily manoeuvre it to an overhead rack.
However, for the vast majority of time I would argue that it is less inconvenient to others than wheely bags, which even if you aware of them (which I generally am), causes their owners to stop at pinch points such as the top and bottom of steps to pick up and put down their bag. I accept that they need to do this, but what they don't need to do is to do so right at the top/bottom leaving those behind them with little chance to get around them.
This is exacerbated when there is a clear space less than two metres from them which they could pause in leaving the steps free for others.
[RANT] It is worse still when people just stop right at the top/bottom of steps, or think that if a good place on a platform to wait. It is not, wait clear of where people are highly likely to want to walk. [/RANT]. (OK, there are times when that is not possible due to overcrowding, but mostly there is no need to do so)
On a busy train from East Croydon tonight. The 17.47. I got on with a rucksack and two plastic shopping bags. There was a bloke on with a very bulky day sack. It wasn't so tall but stuck out further than most day sacks do. A woman near by as well. I decided to leave my bags by the door and moved slightly further away, to the centre of the vestibule, so I'd have more room.
As we got near Gatwick Airport and the announcements started the lady said excuse can you move your bags people need to get off. It wasn't in a friendly tone so it got my back up. I would have moved my bags anyway but I probably leaving it slightly longer as the train was still slowing down and hadn't reached the station.
I then asked the bloke if he could take his bag of his back because it was in the way. To be fair I could get to my bags just about but his bag was awkward or I wouldn't have moved in the first placd. I didn't say anything because I'm to polite, unless pushed
He then said don't bring me into this and the woman said it's got nothing to do with him. His bag is perfectly fine. So now the woman complaining about my bag wad defending a bloke with a bag on his back! You couldn't make it up. She wouldn't be so happy if he had hit her.
The woman said having my bags by the door was dangerous. I'd say surely
no more dangerous than me standing with them by the door. The train was packed more packed before I boarded it so people would have been by the door. Even if the bags were with me, people would have to get around me and my bags.
Anyway there was no time to argue the point any further and I then got a seat as a seat being vacant. The bloke also got off, along with the lady.
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As we got near Gatwick Airport and the announcements started the lady said excuse can you move your bags people need to get off. It wasn't in a friendly tone so it got my back up. I would have moved my bags anyway but I probably leaving it slightly longer as the train was still slowing down and hadn't reached the station.
I then asked the bloke if he could take his bag of his back because it was in the way. To be fair I could get to my bags just about but his bag was awkward or I wouldn't have moved in the first placd. I didn't say anything because I'm to polite, unless pushed
He then said don't bring me into this and the woman said it's got nothing to do with him. His bag is perfectly fine. So now the woman complaining about my bag wad defending a bloke with a bag on his back! You couldn't make it up. She wouldn't be so happy if he had hit her.
The woman said having my bags by the door was dangerous. I'd say surely
no more dangerous than me standing with them by the door. The train was packed more packed before I boarded it so people would have been by the door. Even if the bags were with me, people would have to get around me and my bags.
Anyway there was no time to argue the point any further and I then got a seat as a seat being vacant. The bloke also got off, along with the lady.
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