Rucksack Wearer's Liability

[Mutant Lemming]

After witnessing an incident where a man wearing a rucksack almost knocked someone on to the track when turning suddenly I was wondering if the rucksack wearer would have been guilty of manslaughter had he knocked his hapless victim under an incoming train.
So many people who have rucksacks seem totally unaware of their additional presence and requirement for space especially on crowded trains and platforms.

 

[mikeg]

Given that no crime has been committed, there is no manslaughter by unlawful and dangerous act. The accused was not behind the wheel of a vehicle thus motor manslaughter cannot apply. The act was involuntary which rules out manslaughter as a partial defence to murder (eg Diminished Repsonsibility) , though I think that's been ruled out anways!

That leaves gross negligence manslaughter unless there's an area I've missed and I'm guessing the bar is set too high for this unless they were being well and truly dangerous with their rucksack?

IANAL.

 

[CheesyChips]

There should be a string of offences for improper carrying of rucksacks. I propose the Rucksack Conduct Act 2016. It shall be an offence to:

1. Wield a rucksack with malice
2. Use one's rucksack to gain additional personal space on a train (your rucksack doesn't need a personal space)
3. Stand in the vestibule wearing your rucksack as if you don't realise you're taking up the entire vestibule.
4. Travel in groups of more than 1 with a rucksack.
5. Lose all concepts of spacial awareness whilst wearing a rucksack.

I dare say the right honourable members of the forum will add more offences.

 

[Gemz91]

After witnessing an incident where a man wearing a rucksack almost knocked someone on to the track when turning suddenly I was wondering if the rucksack wearer would have been guilty of manslaughter had he knocked his hapless victim under an incoming train.
So many people who have rucksacks seem totally unaware of their additional presence and requirement for space especially on crowded trains and platforms.

I'd question why was the man stood so close to the edge of the platform that he could have been so easily knocked onto the tracks.

Or simply, don't stand near people wearing large rucksacks.

 

[yorkie]

It would be helpful to know where both parties were stood, and whether or not the person who was knocked over had chosen to stand potentially too close to the track and/or very close to the rucksack, or perhaps the person with the rucksack subsequently moved towards the other person. I can't really picture what happened exactly

 

[robbeech]

I for one wish people would be a little more careful. I do carry one most places but I'm aware of where it is and what effect turning or reversing will have. I'm not a small person by any account so this doesn't help regardless of Rucksack but I tend to carry it infront of me when walking down the aisle of a train and due to my own size I can't walk straight down the side of a sleeper carriage so there's no chance with anything on my back.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I for one wish people would be a little more careful. I do carry one most places but I'm aware of where it is and what effect turning or reversing will have. I'm not a small person by any account so this doesn't help regardless of Rucksack but I tend to carry it infront of me when walking down the aisle of a train and due to my own size I can't walk straight down the side of a sleeper carriage so there's no chance with anything on my back.

The best is when you knock someone sideways with your rucksack in a crowded vestibule, swing round to apologise to the person you've just brained and send a load of other people flying...

 

[route:oxford]

There should be a string of offences for improper carrying of rucksacks. I propose the Rucksack Conduct Act 2016. It shall be an offence to.

First of all, better to create a detailed definition of what a "rucksack" actually is...

My cabin-luggage, for example has an extending handle and wheels, but also has straps that allows it to be worn on the back (or front).

In my mind, stupidly small trolley cases are far more dangerous than a "backpack" as they are near invisible in certain circumstances - then there are the evil elderly who use their walking sticks to point...

 

[CheesyChips]

The best is when you knock someone sideways with your rucksack in a crowded vestibule, swing round to apologise to the person you've just brained and send a load of other people flying...

And thus being liable for prosecution under s3 of the act

 

[Agent_c]

I would suggest that the rucksack wearer has a duty of care to his metaphorical neighbour (those whom can be foreseen as possibly being harmed by his actions - donohugue v Stevenson) and thus could face a negligence liability suit if he did knock someone on the tracks.

However, unless the rucksack was worn by a particularly wealthy person, the costs to bring the suit would probably not be worth whatever you might try to recover before the negligent person filed for bankruptcy.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

First of all, better to create a detailed definition of what a "rucksack" actually is...

My cabin-luggage, for example has an extending handle and wheels, but also has straps that allows it to be worn on the back (or front).

In my mind, stupidly small trolley cases are far more dangerous than a "backpack" as they are near invisible in certain circumstances - then there are the evil elderly who use their walking sticks to point...

I was not going to post on this thread....until I read all of your posting.

A rucksack, when worn, is at a height where it can cause problems for other travellers as someone being struck by such an item could well be hit in the face. Small trolley cases when used correctly do not normally inflict physical damage in that region stated before.

I would venture that on-train wearing of such rucksacks is something that should cease. Why cannot people take off the rucksack and carry it when on board, as that way, they can see other passengers and be able to take care.

How dare you refer to "the evil elderly" with walking sticks. Is there one rule for you with your rucksack and another for those elderly citizens who need the assistance of walking sticks...

 

[najaB]

How dare you refer to "the evil elderly" with walking sticks. Is there one rule for you with your rucksack and another for those elderly citizens who need the assistance of walking sticks...

I think if you re-read the post you are quoting, the issue raised wasn't with people who use walking sticks for assistance, but rather people who raise them up and use them to point - quite often right up at face/eye level.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think if you re-read the post you are quoting, the issue raised wasn't with people who use walking sticks for assistance, but rather people who raise them up and use them to point - quite often right up at face/eye level.

....which is exactly the level that on-board rucksack wearers tend to wreak physical havoc..

Are there the same numerical instances of people being hit by a wielded walking stick than of those being hit on board trains by rucksacks?

 

[najaB]

....which is exactly the level that on-board rucksack wearers tend to wreak physical havoc..

Making them also unsociable, which is the point that route: oxford was making.

 

[apk55]

I often use a rucksack as luggage. Recently I went on a walking holiday holiday where I was walking between B&Bs and had a large 80L quality rucksack as luggage. Normally I would take it off before getting on a train bus or tram and carry it on board, where it was no more problem than any other piece of luggage. I am careful when walking in crowded areas but I should point I would be less of a problem than a person carrying a similar weight and size suitcase.
I often use a smaller rucksack as a shopping bag as I can carry 10 (or more) Kg of groceries the half mile from the local supermarket home, try carrying that amount in a shopping bag and your arm would soon ache. (And my rucksack also makes hundreds of shopping trips before falling apart so it is eco friendly) If I do use public transport I would normally take it off.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

To place the incident - it was at Baker Street Met platform 2 near to the kiosk on the platform. The bloke with the rucksack suddenly stopped and turned toward the kiosk and was oblivious to the person behind him on the platform. He was totally oblivious to the calamities of his rucksack which was quite large and though the girl in question wasn't knocked on to the track (or put off her stride much to be honest) it just had me wondering would he have culpable of some offence had he caused injury.

 

[randyrippley]

Its not rucksacks that are the problem, its umbrellas
People who use those things have no social concience at all. Idiots walking up and down the crowded platform poking eyes, stabbing heads and finally trying to board trains (or exit them) with the thing unfurled

 

[Antman]

To place the incident - it was at Baker Street Met platform 2 near to the kiosk on the platform. The bloke with the rucksack suddenly stopped and turned toward the kiosk and was oblivious to the person behind him on the platform. He was totally oblivious to the calamities of his rucksack which was quite large and though the girl in question wasn't knocked on to the track (or put off her stride much to be honest) it just had me wondering would he have culpable of some offence had he caused injury.

Unlikely I would have thought.

 

[EssexCommuter]

It's not just about whether someone could get knocked onto the tracks. I am 5ft tall, so my face is at the height of most people's rucksacks. It is very unpleasant to be repeatedly hit in the face because of other people's ignorance. If you have a rucksack, take it off your back and hold it before getting on the train. It's common sense, and respectful.

 

[thenorthern]

The liability issue would be one that would be settled in court and I am not aware of any cases at court of it happening but I reckon Network Rail or a TOC could be found liable if it did happen.

This remedied me of a couple of weeks ago when I was with the Premier League Trophy and to be photographed with the trophy people had to take their bags off in case they knocked the trophy over.

 

[Minilad]

There should be a string of offences for improper carrying of rucksacks. I propose the Rucksack Conduct Act 2016. It shall be an offence to:

1. Wield a rucksack with malice
2. Use one's rucksack to gain additional personal space on a train (your rucksack doesn't need a personal space)
3. Stand in the vestibule wearing your rucksack as if you don't realise you're taking up the entire vestibule.
4. Travel in groups of more than 1 with a rucksack.
5. Lose all concepts of spacial awareness whilst wearing a rucksack.

I dare say the right honourable members of the forum will add more offences.

Replace the word rucksack with Bicycle. And change "wearing" to "being with" where appropriate

 

[Phil.]

Anyway, going back to the original I rather suspect that had a fatality ensued a Coroner's most likely summing up would be death by misadventure.

Many moons ago whilst standing on P1 at Gatport Airwick I was asked if there was a toilet on the platform. "Yes, just along there" I replied whilst raising my arm to point and at the same time turning to point in the correct direction inadvertently giving the punter to my left (previously out of my sight line) a rather hefty back-hander to his face.
Fortunately he saw the funny side.

 

[al78]

How about understanding the concept of personal space, and try standing more than a few inches from another person where possible. It annoys me the number of seemingly spatially incompetant people there are around, the sort who just keep walking towards you, until they are literally a foot away, then it's "oops sorry mate didn't see you there" (because you weren't bloody looking properly, that's why). It is as though the edge of the visible universe is no more than half a metre away from their body, and no signal can be sent or received outside of that domain. The worst of the bunch drive their cars like this, and put everyone at risk from their incompetance.

 

[najaB]

How about understanding the concept of personal space, and try standing more than a few inches from another person where possible.

I agree with you in principle, however some rucksacks are very large - almost a second person strapped to the owner's back - and there are some circumstances where it simply isn't possible to give them that much room. It's as much incumbent on the rucksack wearer to be aware of those in their immediate surroundings when making any sudden moves.

 

[samuelmorris]

As a daily rucksack user myself perhaps I'm biased, but I find myself far more often being wiped out by handbags extending sideways from someone's figure than rucksacks that extend behind them. I don't usually make it my business to be standing right behind someone unless in a queue or on a heavily loaded train. As much for comfort as anything else I usually do drop my bag between my legs on busy services but really as far as commuting is concerned, I think it's more the mentality of the person in general than whether they are carrying anything. I've seen plenty of cases (and been on the receiving end of a few) when simply the human body is the offending object - usually people insisting on boarding before anybody has managed to vacate the train.
Given that the rucksack I wear is very large, I am always conscious of checking my surroundings before turning round whilst wearing it, but I can easily envisage a scenario as per the OP's query.

 

[SS4]

How about understanding the concept of personal space, and try standing more than a few inches from another person where possible. It annoys me the number of seemingly spatially incompetant people there are around, the sort who just keep walking towards you, until they are literally a foot away, then it's "oops sorry mate didn't see you there" (because you weren't bloody looking properly, that's why). It is as though the edge of the visible universe is no more than half a metre away from their body, and no signal can be sent or received outside of that domain. The worst of the bunch drive their cars like this, and put everyone at risk from their incompetance.

The weekend shoppers are like this. Some of them even dare to say it's your fault for them pulling out of an aisle without looking

As a daily rucksack user myself perhaps I'm biased, but I find myself far more often being wiped out by handbags extending sideways from someone's figure than rucksacks that extend behind them. I don't usually make it my business to be standing right behind someone unless in a queue or on a heavily loaded train. As much for comfort as anything else I usually do drop my bag between my legs on busy services but really as far as commuting is concerned, I think it's more the mentality of the person in general than whether they are carrying anything. I've seen plenty of cases (and been on the receiving end of a few) when simply the human body is the offending object - usually people insisting on boarding before anybody has managed to vacate the train.
Given that the rucksack I wear is very large, I am always conscious of checking my surroundings before turning round whilst wearing it, but I can easily envisage a scenario as per the OP's query.

I still maintain that trolleys (trip hazard), handbags (more easily swung at speed) and umbrellas (taking up way more space than needed, usually at \a height that can cause neck injury, must be erected the second one gets outside causing a massive queue behind) are more dangerous than rucksacks who's owners are more aware of the possible damage.

 

[Signal Head]

How about understanding the concept of personal space, and try standing more than a few inches from another person where possible. It annoys me the number of seemingly spatially incompetant people there are around, the sort who just keep walking towards you, until they are literally a foot away, then it's "oops sorry mate didn't see you there" (because you weren't bloody looking properly, that's why). It is as though the edge of the visible universe is no more than half a metre away from their body, and no signal can be sent or received outside of that domain.

Usually caused by the one-way opaque screen emitted by mobile phones.

 

[Class377]

This thread is peak RailUK.

Someone was wearing a rucksack - as most people do, because they have to carry things around - and was a little bit silly. They didn't try and cause a problem, or go around intending to **** people off, they just didn't consider that others may have been caught by it.

There are literally thousands of incidents like this caused by all sorts of things - not just backpacks - and it's an inevitable consequence of the fact that, if you want to use public transport, you have to share it with other people - no matter what some people on here may want.

As an aside, if I'm on a crowded train and I have my backpack on, I'll leave it on. Faffing about swinging it about to take it off and then back on again is probably going to cause more inconvenience than leaving it on anyway, and I'll usually (if possible) lean against a wall or post with the backpack against it.

 

[racyrich]

How about understanding the concept of personal space, and try standing more than a few inches from another person where possible. It annoys me the number of seemingly spatially incompetant people there are around, the sort who just keep walking towards you, until they are literally a foot away, then it's "oops sorry mate didn't see you there" (because you weren't bloody looking properly, that's why). It is as though the edge of the visible universe is no more than half a metre away from their body, and no signal can be sent or received outside of that domain. The worst of the bunch drive their cars like this, and put everyone at risk from their incompetance.

The problem is not people trying to occupy the space the rucksack is already in. The problem is the rucksack owner turning and putting the rucksack into a space another person already occupies. Which is exactly what you complain of, a SMIDSY. Except it's the rucksack owner's fault. The sack is an extension of his body so he shouldn't be putting himself into a space already occupied.

 

[duncanp]

How about understanding the concept of personal space, and try standing more than a few inches from another person where possible. It annoys me the number of seemingly spatially incompetant people there are around, the sort who just keep walking towards you, until they are literally a foot away, then it's "oops sorry mate didn't see you there" (because you weren't bloody looking properly, that's why). It is as though the edge of the visible universe is no more than half a metre away from their body, and no signal can be sent or received outside of that domain. The worst of the bunch drive their cars like this, and put everyone at risk from their incompetance.

These days the main problem is that they are looking at their smartphone, so that is one reason the don't see other people.