RSSB- 2 Strike rule- Train Driver

[Stigy]

Just the assessment centre for the 2 strikes rule. If you fail anything online it generally means you can't reapply for that TOC for 6 months

That’s my take on it too, however there’s a difference of view here if you read up on it in that the OPC have said different.

 

[baz962]

That’s my take on it too, however there’s a difference of view here if you read up on it in that the OPC have said different.

The opc told me that the magnificent seven was two strikes for any toc that use them

 

[Westcoast-ting]

The opc told me that the magnificent seven was two strikes for any toc that use them

Somebody posted a advert which said anybody that has failed any computer test may not apply again

Does seem unfair though especially as your not on controlled conditions

 

[Stigy]

Somebody posted a advert which said anybody that has failed any computer test may not apply again

Does seem unfair though especially as your not on controlled conditions

That’s why I can’t see how that would count? It is specific to the VSE ones though, NOT the routine online tests at the end of a lot of application forms.

 

[Stigy]

The opc told me that the magnificent seven was two strikes for any toc that use them

Just the magnificent seven? Is that just one part of the VSE?

 

[baz962]

I think the vse too

 

[Val3ntine]

What TOC is this may I ask? Seems a bit tough to not allow for second chances or even third. Surely the TOC should support the individual before making such a move. This can be quite off-putting for those who would be leaving secure jobs for an opportunity only to get knocked back/made redundant for failing by a few marks.

I think most/all TOCs operate like this. My TOC for example has a certain percentage for a total fail where you are not given a second chance, and a percentage for a chance to have a second and last chance.
For example (dont quote these figures as im not sure of the actual) Up to 70%, no second chance total fail. 71-85% fail but a chance for one more go, 86% and above Pass.

 

[Dynamonic]

One of the key reasons for the recruitment process being the way it is, is to ensure you are capable of successfully completing the training. It says that somewhere in the practice material too, I believe.

If you're passing the recruitment assessments, then realistically, you shouldn't really need to have second chances in training, as you should already have the ability and dedication to succeed.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think another problem with second chances is that with the OPC tests you are not employed by the TOCs and if you are you are in a different role. If you fail and need to wait another 6 months.

If you failed the rules course its different. A TOC will potentially plan a years worth of courses (my TOC does) and if you failed then where do you go ? Do you get put on the next course and bump other candidates who have been given joining dates. Can a TOC afford to sideline you for x number of weeks or potentially train you for twice the amount of time as other candidates. Sadly, there is also a commercial element to this too.

it's about giving it 110% during training to make sure you know what you're doing, developing and building on that knowledge throughout your career and daily carrying out the job with professionalism and safe practice. Most people are fine with that but the minority who don't step up to their responsibilities should rightly be asked to seek alternative employment.

I agree with this. Candidates need to understand the two strike rule for the OPC tests is a safeguard against it becoming a memory test and weeds out those who potentially make it through the entire process. When candidates get to the TOC they need to understand that you potentially have one shot to make it. You get out what you put in and it becomes clear quite early those who will and won't make it. There is plenty of help for those both need and want it.

I think most/all TOCs operate like this. My TOC for example has a certain percentage for a total fail where you are not given a second chance, and a percentage for a chance to have a second and last chance.
For example (dont quote these figures as im not sure of the actual) Up to 70%, no second chance total fail. 71-85% fail but a chance for one more go, 86% and above Pass.

This is an interesting approach. Missing by a few marks and potentially just a single percentage can be a bit harsh and a kick in the teeth. It's a difficult decision to make to stop a candidate going forward and potentially out of a job.

These decisions aren't made lightly and the Trainers, Instructors, Managers all work closely with the Trainees. When that decision is made its often because you know that the Trainee just won't make it. Sometimes you look forward and consider if they will be able to make it through the rest of the process and sometimes you need to look back and see how difficult it has been for them to get to the stage where they are. If a candidate aced rules, aced traction but struggled with manual handling and just dipped out on the assessment then yeah, second go for sure. I know a few Drivers who failed their driving assessments but went on to become great Drivers. But I think it's reasonable when someone is clearly struggling or has struggled through the entire process and all help has been given that you sometimes just have to say no further training. Sadly, just as Deiseldriver highlights, some people just don't seem to bother.

There are plenty of people on this forum that will freely offer their help and advice both publicity and privately.

 

[baz962]

Agree with most of the above , but isn't everything bar manual handling a memory exercise. If you naturally have great manual handling , then learning route , rules , traction all down to memory. I for instance read and re read, the part of the rule book tw5 - movement of trains with faults /isolations . I read that on the train to work everyday as that is one of the biggies at my toc , so I knew the restrictions off by heart . As an aside there are rule book changes starting today that include aws / tpws isolated.

 

[ComUtoR]

To some extent yes. Where you need knowledge, it can be just a matter of memorizing a ton of information and there is a lot to remember and be able to recall at a moments notice and at a time where you may be under pressure.

Memorizing a test is different. If I told you the answers were A, B, B, D, E, C, C.. Then what have you learned ? If it takes 10 attempts to succeed its not showing any real aptitude. In our line of work that's potentially dangerous.

I have no issue with the OPC tests being two strikes. I'm on the fence with how the internal process and the training is done and I'm in the camp where I believe there should be an investment into someone and a responsibility to get them through. I just find it harder and harder to maintain that view where there I see more and more evidence that giving people multiple goes as an entitlement, just isn't working and can be more detrimental in the long term.

 

[baz962]

To some extent yes. Where you need knowledge, it can be just a matter of memorizing a ton of information and there is a lot to remember and be able to recall at a moments notice and at a time where you may be under pressure.

Memorizing a test is different. If I told you the answers were A, B, B, D, E, C, C.. Then what have you learned ? If it takes 10 attempts to succeed its not showing any real aptitude. In our line of work that's potentially dangerous.

I have no issue with the OPC tests being two strikes. I'm on the fence with how the internal process and the training is done and I'm in the camp where I believe there should be an investment into someone and a responsibility to get them through. I just find it harder and harder to maintain that view where there I see more and more evidence that giving people multiple goes as an entitlement, just isn't working and can be more detrimental in the long term.

Oh of course . But also to take on board perhaps some nerves , white coat syndrome while being assessed , different expectations from different driver managers or assessors . I agree that you need to find if anyone is simply not safe or unsuitable , but I think one go at a final could be harsh .

 

[Scouse_scott]

I Have sat the opc testing 3 time now. Failed on the CBI the 1st time, passed everything the 2nd time and the 3rd time I just had to re do the dots and MMI for the TOC I'm with now.

You can definitely train yourself for the MMI if you keep on retaking it. Each time I sat it I got better and better. 1st time I was In there over 1 hour, next 40 min and the last time was 15-20 min tops. For this part of the testing it makes sense to only allow people to fail it 1 time.

But I dont see the problem in letting people re sit the interviewer stage again after a big break like 4 or 5 years if they failed.

I sat the CBI too young. I just didn't have the life experience at 22 to have good examples. On this part of the test you can actually get better as you get older

 

[ComUtoR]

but I think one go at a final could be harsh .

I think it is more to do with having a single shot rule more than having a guaranteed second go. When I started it was a guaranteed second go. This was almost abused to a high extent and the expectation to get a second go made people not seem to care about how much effort they put in. It also puts a strain on the TOC because you are constantly training people even though you know their second attempt will also fail. It pushes back others and costs the TOC another 12 weeks wages. Delaying the inevitable is just as detrimental to the candidate. We then moved to a second go is not guaranteed but generally given and then there were complaints of unfairness and why should person A get a second go when person B doesn't. Now any guarantee of a second go has been removed. Nobody can play the system, everyone is treated the same, and the TOC has an out clause.

But I dont see the problem in letting people re sit the interviewer stage again after a big break like 4 or 5 years if they failed.

I sat the CBI too young. I just didn't have the life experience at 22 to have good examples. On this part of the test you can actually get better as you get older

4/5 years seems long to me but in I'd agree in principle that the interview stage can be sat multiple times. I think in general 6 months before reapplying is standard.