Royal Welsh Show - Specials to Builth Rd

[70014IronDuke]

I see that the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society show has been on this past week, and ATW has run the (seemingly) traditional morning special from Cardiff via the Swansea District, then north at Hendy Jcn to Builth Rd - and evening return.

Odd workings like this always intrigue me. Could those in the know please say: what are these trains formed of? How well used are they? (Rail links do get a mention on the RWAS website, with information on the shuttle buses to Builth Rd station - but the rail info is at the bottom of the list. It's clear the RWAS folks don't expect too many punters to be arriving by rail. See
http://www.rwas.wales/travelling-to-the-show/ )

Also, it seems these trains are timed to stop at all the HoW stations - halts like Sugar Loaf and all. This helps make the full trip from Cardiff a 3-hour 5-min journey (plus, one assumes, the better part of half an hour to get the shuttle bus and into the RWAS grounds) - a trek too far to be attractive to many living in the Cardiff-Bridgend-Port Talbot region.

Why not run the train fast from Port Talbot, except, of course, for the passing loops on the HoW? OR - does this mean ATW are also relying on day trippers using these trains to destinations other than the Royal Show?

Finally - I keep hearing that ATW are short of crews and stock for scheduled workings, let alone extras. Yet they seem to manage these trains, which I assume lay over during the day (al Llandrindod?) - although perhaps the crews return on the cushions to Cardiff and return likewise for the evening trains? Either way, seems an awfully poor utilisation of stock and crews. Begs the question - who funds these trains - because surely, they don't cover costs? Are they part of the franchise agreement?

 

[PHILIPE]

I see that the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society show has been on this past week, and ATW has run the (seemingly) traditional morning special from Cardiff via the Swansea District, then north at Hendy Jcn to Builth Rd - and evening return.

Odd workings like this always intrigue me. Could those in the know please say: what are these trains formed of? How well used are they? (Rail links do get a mention on the RWAS website, with information on the shuttle buses to Builth Rd station - but the rail info is at the bottom of the list. It's clear the RWAS folks don't expect too many punters to be arriving by rail. See
http://www.rwas.wales/travelling-to-the-show/ )

Also, it seems these trains are timed to stop at all the HoW stations - halts like Sugar Loaf and all. This helps make the full trip from Cardiff a 3-hour 5-min journey (plus, one assumes, the better part of half an hour to get the shuttle bus and into the RWAS grounds) - a trek too far to be attractive to many living in the Cardiff-Bridgend-Port Talbot region.

Why not run the train fast from Port Talbot, except, of course, for the passing loops on the HoW? OR - does this mean ATW are also relying on day trippers using these trains to destinations other than the Royal Show?

Finally - I keep hearing that ATW are short of crews and stock for scheduled workings, let alone extras. Yet they seem to manage these trains, which I assume lay over during the day (al Llandrindod?) - although perhaps the crews return on the cushions to Cardiff and return likewise for the evening trains? Either way, seems an awfully poor utilisation of stock and crews. Begs the question - who funds these trains - because surely, they don't cover costs? Are they part of the franchise agreement?

The only info I have picked up is shown on this page here:-

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91695&page=107

Combos of 2x150 and 150+153 mentioned.

They would be crewed on the Heart of Wales Line by Carmarthen crews, this being the only Depot with route knowledge over the southern part of the line. I'd hardly think any day trippers would be using them other than people going to the show.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The only info I have picked up is shown on this page here:-

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91695&page=107

Combos of 2x150 and 150+153 mentioned.

Thanks. I had no idea such detailed threads existed on here!

They would be crewed on the Heart of Wales Line by Carmarthen crews, this being the only Depot with route knowledge over the southern part of the line.

Presumably not all the way from Cardiff? Would they take over at Port Talbot? Otherwise, it means sending the men all the way to Cardiff in the morning. And returns in the evening from Cardiff - yet more down time and expense.

I'd hardly think any day trippers would be using them other than people going to the show.

Well, I'd tend to agree, but that's my point. Why not run them fast along the HoW - at least once freed from the scheduling needs dictated by regular services crossing en route - and cut the overall journey times to Cardiff/Bridgend/Pyle etc?

Furthermore, according to RTT, they run the stock Builth Rd - Llandrindod and back ECS. Surely, if they were interested in drumming up a bit of 'classical' tourist traffic, they would run trains advertised all the way to Llandod? Surely this would not cost them an additional penny - but might attract a handful more punters?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BHR/2017/07/24/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Anyway, at least it reminds ATW management that the Swansea District Line exists, and it not much used!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Perhaps the main purpose of the special is to convey passengers from the intermediate stations to the show, at a more convenient time than the service trains, and also to relieve pressure on the service trains with their limited (single class 153) capacity?

The Cardiff start offers the chance for people in south-east Wales the chance to visit the show by direct train.

I would agree that an extension to Llandrindod, given that it operates to there anyway as ECS would be sensible.

When was the service last loco hauled?

 

[Andy Pacer]

The main services on the line had been 150 operated this week (rather than the usual 153). There was a 150/153 combo parked up near Llandrindod when I passed at around 1140 on Thursday which had presumably been the extra.

 

[30909]

Perhaps the main purpose of the special is to convey passengers from the intermediate stations to the show, at a more convenient time than the service trains, and also to relieve pressure on the service trains with their limited (single class 153) capacity?

The Cardiff start offers the chance for people in south-east Wales the chance to visit the show by direct train.

I would agree after all it is an agricultural show and the majority of members of the society and visiting public will be drawn from rural communities. Urbanites with an interest in rural matters will also swell the visitor numbers.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Perhaps the main purpose of the special is to convey passengers from the intermediate stations to the show, at a more convenient time than the service trains, and also to relieve pressure on the service trains with their limited (single class 153) capacity?

The Cardiff start offers the chance for people in south-east Wales the chance to visit the show by direct train.

I would agree after all it is an agricultural show and the majority of members of the society and visiting public will be drawn from rural communities. Urbanites with an interest in rural matters will also swell the visitor numbers.

The extra services pre Arriva were paid for by a special SRA grant , then rolled into a commitment for the franchise .

 

[Dr Hoo]

Having caught the 'morning Cardiff train' a couple of years ago, when visiting the Show for business reasons, I was staggered at the number of passengers who joined intermediately at the remotest of halts.

Running fast would completely negate the real benefit of the additional service on the HOWL.

Local roads can be a complete nightmare during the Show period, of course. So canny locals know that it is worth using the train if they can (possibly for the only time in a year, I wonder).

 

[Jez]

I wonder where ATW found the extra trains for the HOW this week. In the past I think some pacer diagrams on valleys lines were 2 car instead of 4 car, to free up pacers to cover some 150 diagrams as a way of getting extra 150s for HOW.

Usually the special train is 2 x150s but i'm sure one day this week it was just a single 150 when i saw it pass Port Talbot on the return journey. Also at least one of the days it was a 150+153. Did ATW manage to put 150s on all other HOW services instead of the booked 153 workings?

As for why the special starts in Cardiff, id guess its because the train booked for the HOW special is in Canton. And by sending it over the district it avoids having to go all the way into Swansea. It also gives the opportunity for passengers to get a direct journey from Cardiff, Bridgend, Port Talbot. I imagine quite a few passengers join the train on the HOW stations.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Having caught the 'morning Cardiff train' a couple of years ago, when visiting the Show for business reasons, I was staggered at the number of passengers who joined intermediately at the remotest of halts.

Running fast would completely negate the real benefit of the additional service on the HOWL.

Local roads can be a complete nightmare during the Show period, of course. So canny locals know that it is worth using the train if they can (possibly for the only time in a year, I wonder).

This is very interesting. But from what you write here, it implies the main occupants of the train are from HoWL stations - begging the question: why go to all of the expense (crewing problems etc) by running it from/to Cardiff?

It also implies, if the passenger numbers are so good on these four days, that damn few use Builth Road for the remaining 358 days of the year, given that passenger numbers for the stop have averaged about 8,200 for each of the past three years.

Another event like the RWAS on the line would do wonders for the HoWL passenger numbers, obviously!

 

[berneyarms]

This is very interesting. But from what you write here, it implies the main occupants of the train are from HoWL stations - begging the question: why go to all of the expense (crewing problems etc) by running it from/to Cardiff?

It also implies, if the passenger numbers are so good on these four days, that damn few use Builth Road for the remaining 358 days of the year, given that passenger numbers for the stop have averaged about 8,200 for each of the past three years.

Another event like the RWAS on the line would do wonders for the HoWL passenger numbers, obviously!

Where else in South Wales are they going to get the sets from to operate the service other than Cardiff - they may as well operate it in service.

 

[Harrythecat]

The last time I believe this service was loco hauled (class 50) was 2005. It then went to 2 x class 150, with train reversing at Llanelli, presumably a Carmarthen crew taking charge there and in recent years has been leaving main line after Port Talbot, next stop Pontarddulais. Last went on this service about 2006/7 train was fully seated by Llandeilo and after Llandovery was crush standing being unable to stop at last few stations before Builth. Crowd control on staion in evening
2 Weeks ago before show this year, we went up Heart of Wales, Llanelli to Shrewsbury, class 153 with 20 passengers mid morning service, yes line needs more promotion and possibly promoting commuter traffic from Llandeilo to Swansea / Cardiff

 

[jimm]

I wonder where ATW found the extra trains for the HOW this week. In the past I think some pacer diagrams on valleys lines were 2 car instead of 4 car, to free up pacers to cover some 150 diagrams as a way of getting extra 150s for HOW.

Unless Cardiff is unlike every other big city, I assume commuter traffic is somewhat reduced at this time of year with the schools on holiday and people away, so taking out a couple of units for four days to provide the Royal Welsh Show service is unlikely to pose too much of a problem for capacity on the Valley Lines.

 

[DelW]

It also implies, if the passenger numbers are so good on these four days, that damn few use Builth Road for the remaining 358 days of the year, given that passenger numbers for the stop have averaged about 8,200 for each of the past three years.

Builth Road station is a couple of miles out of the town centre, and it's not a very nice walk (along the edge of a busy main road), so without shuttle buses it's a much less practical option. On non-show days the HoW trains are competing against the Trawscymru T4 bus (Cardiff - Newtown) which is more frequent (7/day against 4/day) and stops in the town centre. Anyone from HoW stations who needs access to town facilities would tend to use Llandrindod instead.

 

[squizzler]

The impression I get from the line's Travellers Association (HoWLTA) is that of disappointment about the promotion of the special service by Arriva. The Arriva website did not list the Royal Welsh on its events page despite running the special train, that train being a stipulation of the franchise agreement and not something that Arrive wish to provide off their own bat.

Personally I wish it was a loco and coaches rake to capture the enthusiasts as much as the Royal Welsh punters - remaining in service as it runs forward to llandrindod would give that market more choice what to do when waiting to return. The impression is that most visitors to the show try to use alternative means of getting there and that the train is very much a minority sport.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Builth Road station is a couple of miles out of the town centre, and it's not a very nice walk (along the edge of a busy main road), so without shuttle buses it's a much less practical option. On non-show days the HoW trains are competing against the Trawscymru T4 bus (Cardiff - Newtown) which is more frequent (7/day against 4/day) and stops in the town centre. Anyone from HoW stations who needs access to town facilities would tend to use Llandrindod instead.

Yes, I realise it's a trek out of Builth itself. (I have been along that road, but just once.) But by the descriptions on here, it sounds as if the station could easily get 500 passengers a day on the days of the show. That comes to 4,000 passengers on/off over the four days, or about 50% of the station's entire annual traffic!

 

[6Gman]

Personally I wish it was a loco and coaches rake to capture the enthusiasts as much as the Royal Welsh punters - remaining in service as it runs forward to llandrindod would give that market more choice what to do when waiting to return.

If you've bought a ticket you've as much right to travel as anyone else but having a loco-hauled train packed with enthusiasts would rather defeat the object of the exercise - which is to offer a non-car alternative for show traffic and to ease (ever so slightly) road congestion.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If you've bought a ticket you've as much right to travel as anyone else but having a loco-hauled train packed with enthusiasts would rather defeat the object of the exercise - which is to offer a non-car alternative for show traffic and to ease (ever so slightly) road congestion.

Exactly - enthusiast trains should be enthusiast trains - these particular ones are for the general public out to enjoy the show. Like it or not.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Anybody travelling on one of these specials this year? Would be interesting to hear reports of how they load.

 

[Techniquest]

I'm not in the local area these days, so I'm not going no.

However, someone else in the thread commented on loco use in 2005. Not quite correct, as it was 37425 on two days (I didn't see each day sadly due to work commitments) in 2005. In 2006 it was 50-hauled, I believe that was the last year of loco haulage on the Royal Welsh extras, I can't recall for sure where I was that year but I didn't do the 50s. Something tells me I was in Scotland!

Anyway, here's my video from 2005's extras on 21st July 2005, starring the mighty 37425:

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm wondering if the same units will be kept together all week. The first two days have been:-

142002, 1553303 and 153361

 

[6Gman]

I'm wondering if the same units will be kept together all week. The first two days have been:-

142002, 1553303 and 153361

How many hours is that on a Pacer if you're travelling from Cardiff?

 

[squizzler]

I understand the RWAS specials have in recent years been run with zero publicity so ridership atrophied. Perhaps TfW just take the pacer along to make up the contracted length they are obliged to provide, knowing that their ridership will be accommodated in the sprinters?

 

[PHILIPE]

I understand the RWAS specials have in recent years been run with zero publicity so ridership atrophied. Perhaps TfW just take the pacer along to make up the contracted length they are obliged to provide, knowing that their ridership will be accommodated in the sprinters?

Don;t think there is any such thing that applies to this. Who would any contract be with ? Capacity is provided to meet requirements

 

[squizzler]

Who would any contract be with ?

I understand that (at least in the days of Arriva) the RWAS specials were part of the franchise commitment but I do not know if this went so far as to specify train length.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I'm not in the local area these days, so I'm not going no.

However, someone else in the thread commented on loco use in 2005. Not quite correct, as it was 37425 on two days (I didn't see each day sadly due to work commitments) in 2005. In 2006 it was 50-hauled, I believe that was the last year of loco haulage on the Royal Welsh extras, I can't recall for sure where I was that year but I didn't do the 50s. Something tells me I was in Scotland!

Anyway, here's my video from 2005's extras on 21st July 2005, starring the mighty 37425:

Is that six Mk2s behind the Cl 37? That's some train. Must have been rather slow, if fun. Were there more enthusiasts on board than 'real' passengers?

Yesterday's (23.07.19) return working appears to have been caped because of track defect. I wonder how they got folks back?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V10716/2019/07/23/advanced

 

[ValleyLines142]

How many hours is that on a Pacer if you're travelling from Cardiff?

Three and a half!

Yesterday morning it was 143+153+153 I believe.

 

[PHILIPE]

Is that six Mk2s behind the Cl 37? That's some train. Must have been rather slow, if fun. Were there more enthusiasts on board than 'real' passengers?

Yesterday's (23.07.19) return working appears to have been caped because of track defect. I wonder how they got folks back?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V10716/2019/07/23/advanced

There is an ECS shown as running but I'm wondering if it actually did run as a VSTP as the amendments to the booked services and bustitution due to the rail were cancelled and trains ran normally.

 

[Techniquest]

Is that six Mk2s behind the Cl 37? That's some train. Must have been rather slow, if fun. Were there more enthusiasts on board than 'real' passengers?

Yesterday's (23.07.19) return working appears to have been caped because of track defect. I wonder how they got folks back?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V10716/2019/07/23/advanced

I'm out in Cardiff today and on mobile data so not checked but it was certainly a decent load. From memory, 14 years on, the mix was more norm passengers than enthusiasts, understandably there were a lot of enthusiasts too but the majority alighted at Builth Road.

 

[PHILIPE]

Three and a half!

Yesterday morning it was 143+153+153 I believe.

Post #21 quotes the numbers, Dan