Routing Query (Sheffield - Leuchars)

[tbtc]

Does anyone know how flexible the "any permitted" route is between Sheffield and Leuchars?

The "obvious" way is via the ECML, but is it permitted to go

• Via Manchester
• Via Settle
• Via Sunderland

(etc)

Thanks in advance - I'm just fancying a more scenic trip than I normally do

(apologies if this kind of information is easily available elsewhere, I had a quick search first)

 

[yorkie]

Shortest route(s) are valid.
Direct trains are valid.
Mapped routes are defined in the Routeing Guide.

Sheffield is a Routeing Point (RP).
Leuchars is associated with two RPs: Dundee & Ladybank. Ladybank passes the fares check rule.

Sheffield - Ladybank is valid on the following map combinations:
PS+ZZ
PS+ZZ+EG
YL+ER
YL+NE

Maps on the ATOC site - enjoy!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(apologies if this kind of information is easily available elsewhere, I had a quick search first)

Depends on whether you consider the Routeing Guide "easy" or not

 

[SS4]

Sheffield is an RP
Leuchars is associated with Dundee and Ladybank so the fares check is required

SHF - LEU:
SOS £116.50
SVS £99.20

SHF - DEE
SOS £124.50
SVS £112.10
Thus Dundee fails the fare check

SHF - LDY
SOS £116.50
SVS £99.20
Ladybank passes the fare check

Thus the journey is Sheffield - Ladybank which is permitted on maps PS+ZZ, PS+ZZ+EG, YL+ER or YL+NE

PS+ZZ: PS to Preston via Manchester and ZZ from Preston to Leuchars.

 

[OwlMan]

Sheffield is an RP
Leuchars is associated with Dundee and Ladybank so the fares check is required

SHF - LEU:
SOS £116.50
SVS £99.20

SHF - DEE
SOS £124.50
SVS £112.10
Thus Dundee fails the fare check

SHF - LDY
SOS £116.50
SVS £99.20
Ladybank passes the fare check

Thus the journey is Sheffield - Ladybank which is permitted on maps PS+ZZ, PS+ZZ+EG, YL+ER or YL+NE

PS+ZZ: PS to Preston via Manchester and ZZ from Preston to Leuchars.

Map ZZ is for sleepers!

Peter

 

[island]

I don't think that rules it out of being used for normal services, although you might struggle to convince a guard of same.

 

[button_boxer]

Settle should be fine, Railmiles seems to think that Leeds, S+C, Carlisle to Haymarket and on to Leuchars would be the shortest route, or at least within 3 miles of the shortest. Not sure how that accords with the official mileages from the NR timetable...

 

[globetrotter]

You can't travel via Dundee on the Sheffield - Leuchars return. Or via Manchester, it seems.

If you want to go from Sheffield via Dundee, it would cost you an extra £17.20 ... buy a £113.10 Off Peak Return to Dundee then a £4.30 single to Leuchars (or v.v.) as you'd only travel via Dundee once (and that would have to be on the outward trip). You don't want to use the return half of the ticket until the day of travel back to Sheffield.

If you had either the Leuchars or the Dundee Off Peak return ticket, you can go via Settle or Sunderland at no additional cost for £100.20 Sheffield to Leuchars or for £113.10 ticket Sheffield to Dundee.

I did not find a way to do the journey from Sheffield via Manchester on the Off Peak Return from Sheffield.

So what I can suggest instead:

Buy a ticket from Chinley to Dundee at £107 (off peak return). This will allow travel via any of Leuchars, Settle, Sunderland or Manchester - the perfect solution for you to travel on any of the routes you want. In practice, I believe you can start / stop short on this ticket / routeing. To travel via Manchester you'll have to buy a single ticket to Chinley in one direction or the other.

Would someone else like to double check all this and confirm? It's a complex set of choices and I am still in the learning process

 

[yorkie]

You can't travel via Dundee on the Sheffield - Leuchars return. Or via Manchester, it seems.

If you want to go from Sheffield via Dundee, it would cost you an extra £17.20 ... buy a £113.10 Off Peak Return to Dundee then a £4.30 single to Leuchars (or v.v.) as you'd only travel via Dundee once (and that would have to be on the outward trip).

We don't know how long he is staying for. If he is only staying 1 night, and resuming before 12.00 then the break of journey at Leuchars could be done on the outward trip at no extra cost. Otherwise, it would be done on the return trip at no extra cost. The only circumstance in which he would need the £4.30 extra ticket is if he wanted to break a journey to Dundee at Leuchars on the outward portion for more than one night, or for one night resuming before 12.00.

You don't want to use the return half of the ticket until the day of travel back to Sheffield.

Why?

Would someone else like to double check all this and confirm? It's a complex set of choices and I am still in the learning process

No problem. I think you may have the validity of an Off Peak Return confused. The restrictions are:
(there is more text than this but much of it is irrelevant to this ticket)

Origin: SHEFFIELD [SHF]
Destination: DUNDEE [DEE]
SVR - OFF-PEAK R CC
00000 - ANY PERMITTED

1 Adult @£ 113.10 = £ 113.10

Restriction : 8X
Outward and Return journeys,
MONDAY to FRIDAY only.
No travel restrictions on
other days.

By any train except those
scheduled to depart before
0500.

Ticket Code: BVR/SVR
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: RETURN
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:-
Day - ONE CALENDAR MONTH
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW)
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Break of journey is allowed on
the outward portion of
Off-Peak tickets UNLESS
OTHERWISE INDICATED BY A
RESTRICTION SHOWN AGAINST THE
TICKET'S VALIDITY CODE, and in
all cases on the return
portion of Off-Peak return
tickets.

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey does continue
into the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply. No further break of
journey is allowed except for
the purpose of changing
trains. Please note that break
of_journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed_in
the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak
Return tickets are valid for
travel until 0230 on the day
following the last day of
validity (i.e. one calendar
month from outward journey).
If a passenger is_still
travelling at 0230, they
may stay on the train to
complete that part of the
journey but no further break
of journey is allowed and all
travel must be completed by
1200.

 

[John @ home]

You can't travel via Dundee on the Sheffield - Leuchars return.

I don't think anybody was suggesting going to Leuchars via Dundee. The reference to Dundee in SS4's post is to determine the appropriate Routeing Point(s) to use in the calculation of mapped permitted routes for this journey.

Or via Manchester, it seems.

That is more debatable. Travel via Manchester is permitted by map combinations PS+ZZ and PS+ZZ+EG only. The title of map ZZ, Sleeper trains, may suggest that these map combinations are intended to be used only when at least part of the journey is undertaken by Sleeper train. But one of the notes on map ZZ is For operating convenience sleeper trains sometimes use lines not on this map, but the timetabled service stops at these stations (except Newton). Variations from routes shown here are permitted routes for sleeper trains only. This may suggest that travelling by the routes shown on the map(s) without variation is also permitted by trains which are not sleeper trains.

You don't want to use the return half of the ticket until the day of travel back to Sheffield.

I don't understand this sentence. If a passenger wishes to travel Sheffield - Leuchars outward via Dundee and return avoiding Dundee, then an Off-Peak Return Sheffield - Dundee permits outward travel (via Perth) on the "valid from" date on the ticket, followed immediately by return travel Dundee - Leuchars. The return leg of the journey can be broken at Leuchars and the journey resumed on any day within one month.

If you had either the Leuchars or the Dundee Off Peak return ticket, you can go via Settle or Sunderland at no additional cost for £100.20 Sheffield to Leuchars or for £113.10 ticket Sheffield to Dundee.

I did not find a way to do the journey from Sheffield via Manchester on the Off Peak Return from Sheffield.

The Sheffield - Leuchars ticket is valid via Manchester if map ZZ may be used. The Sheffield - Dundee ticket is valid via Manchester whether or not map ZZ may be used. This avoids the need to split at (and the train to stop at) Chinley.

 

[globetrotter]

The OP wants to travel the scenic route; I was assuming in my reply that going via Dundee to Leuchars would be interesting because that allows him another different route through Scotland at a small extra cost as well as going via Manchester.

I looked at the cost and said to myself, were I making this journey if I had to pay £100 then I could pay £115 if that meant I could go the way I wanted. I also assumed "tbtc" did not want to go out and back the same day and that if the journey was for leisure purposes then the offpeak ticket would be the obvious choice.

I think the above assumptions are reasonable. No sleeper trains are involved as all travel would likely be during daylight.

An earlier posting by SS4 states that Dundee fails the fare check.

So, proceeding from there:

If he wants to go via Manchester from Sheffield I now see that this is possible on the Sheffield-Dundee ticket using maps NL NW and FD although National Rail Enquiries had earlier failed to come up with a fare for me via Manchester. So travel is indeed possible via Manchester, Settle and Sunderland provided one buys the ticket from Sheffield to Dundee not to Leuchars and purchases a single ticket in one direction between the two as explained earlier.

Sheffield Group to Dundee
MM+FD
MM+GA
MM+WG+FD
MM+WG+GA
NL+NW+FD
NL+NW+GA
NL+WG+FD
NL+WG+GA
YL+ER
YL+NE

Sheffield Group to Ladybank
PS+ZZ
PS+ZZ+EG
YL+ER
YL+NE

If "tbtc" wants, he can buy a ticket to Dundee from Sheffield that will allow travel as far as Dundee en route to Leuchars, or from Dundee on the way back. That leaves him to purchase a single ticket between Dundee and Leuchars just in one direction as I earlier stated. Or just travel at lower cost between Ladybank and Leuchars by the same route in each direction.

The cost is therefore £113.10 Off Peak return Sheffield to Dundee plus £4.30 Dundee to Leuchars or v.v.

If "tbtc" is happy to travel to & from Leuchars only via Ladywell he need pay only £100.20 but on that ticket he would not be able to travel by Manchester and enjoy the scenic route(s).

I agree with Yorkie's comments about staying the night en route and resuming the next day before midday.

The rules are so arcane that multiple choice questions like this are a real challenge to research, check and fully explain.

 

[tbtc]

Thanks for the responses - *genuinley* - I'm both impressed and confused...

Impressed at the knowledge on here, and confused about how confusing this process must be for anyone trying to work it out independantly.

Does anyone know whether a return ticket from Sheffield to Perth would be vaild by Manchester/ Glasgow?

(its a leisure trip, travelling back a couple of days after heading north)

 

[globetrotter]

It's been pointed out to me by one of the experts that some of what I posted in my last message was incorrect.

I can't remove or edit the posting so let me post a correction.

The complete answer to the OP's question is to purchase an Off Peak return from Sheffield not to Leuchars but to Dundee at a small additional cost. This allows travel via all routes requested and via Dundee to enjoy the scenic route and avoid duplication. A ticket to Leuchars is cheaper but does not allow travel via Manchester during the day or via Dundee, so it's a choice.

On the outward half as Yorkie has pointed out it's possible to have a break of journey somewhere provided one continues the journey no later than midday the following day and makes no further break of journey except to change trains.

Having having arrived in Dundee, as the return half is valid 1 month and break of journey is allowed at any time within the 1 month validity of the ticket, there is no need to purchase an extra ticket to travel on from Dundee to Leuchars. Therefore to visit or go via Dundee, it's best done on the outward leg as one can use the Off Peak Return whereas if one did not leave Leuchars before midday the day after arrival and wanted to return via Dundee it would be necessary to purchase a single ticket from Leuchars to Dundee.

To clarify, Dundee itself is an option (not requested by the OP) but the Dundee ticket is what allows daytime travel via Manchester.

As I stated, the rules are so arcane that multiple choice questions like this are a real challenge to research, check and fully explain. Apologies for any confusion through posting incorrect information. I'm learning myself through this process and trust that what I have said here is now correct.

 

[yorkie]

Impressed at the knowledge on here, and confused about how confusing this process must be for anyone trying to work it out independently.

You are welcome to attend a Fares workshop if you'd like some informal 'training' on the Routeing Guide (and other things!), there's one in Manchester and another in Sheffield this month!

Does anyone know whether a return ticket from Sheffield to Perth would be vaild by Manchester/ Glasgow?

(its a leisure trip, travelling back a couple of days after heading north)

Full instructions are at the Routeing Guide on the ATOC site:

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

Basic instructions:

What you need to do is look up the "pink pages" and see if these stations are Routeing Points. Well, we already know Sheffield is! Perth is an important junction station, so unsurprisingly Perth is too. Then look up thr "yellow pages" to see which maps you can use.

The answer is:
MM+FD
MM+FK
MM+WG+FD
MM+WG+FK
NL+NW+FD
NL+NW+FK
NL+WG+FD
NL+WG+FK
PS+ZZ
YL+ER
YL+NE

Then view the maps to see which route you can take.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf

It's been pointed out to me by one of the experts that some of what I posted in my last message was incorrect.

I can't remove or edit the posting so let me post a correction.

I have removed the incorrect part of your most recent posting, but you should be able to edit your post using the Edit button, as far as I know. What you have since posted is seems correct to me.