Routing guide query Swindon to Belfast

[bkhtele]

Help guys I am struggling to understand the routing guide
I have purchased a Standard economy single Swindon to Carrickfergus NI (near Belfast NI) Valid on date shown a Sat. (Railsea ticket £44.50 would be £41 to Belfast) Route HLYHD Irishf CIV (Irish ferry dept 14.10)

The journey Swindon station have booked me on has a number of risky connections Dept Swindon 07.16, Cheltenham 0824. dept 08.42 Stafford 10.00 dept 10.09, Crewe 10.30 dept 10.45 Holy head 12.58. Ferry dept 14.10 via Dublin to Belfast 21.10 (OK with Irish part of jouney)

I would like to go Dept Swindon 06.41 Paddington 07.44, Euston dept 08.50 direct to Holyhead 12.58. Same ferry etc. Is this a valid route? If yes how do I prove it to ticket collectors. If not is there a better journey that is valid with safer connections using the 14.10 ferry?

 

[b0b]

The routeing guide does not say what to do in this case, but if you take the most reasonable idea, which is to say all routes Swindon to Holyhead as valid, via London is not a valid route. Also not your ticket doesnt have the maltese cross...

A routing points: [Routing Point SWINDON (WILTS)]
B routing points: [Routing Point SHOTTON]

ROUTING Station SWINDON (WILTS) TO Station Holyhead
14 routes found
route [Map MW, Map LC]
Map MW to Map LC via [Routing Point LIVERPOOL GROUP, Routing Point STOKE ON TRENT, Routing Point COVENTRY, Routing Point SHOTTON, Routing Point HUNTS CROSS GROUP, Routing Point WOLVERHAMPTON, Routing Point EARLESTOWN, Routing Point WARRINGTON GROUP, Routing Point WREXHAM GROUP, Routing Point SMETHWICK GROUP, Routing Point CREWE, Routing Point CHESTER, Routing Point WALSALL GROUP, Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point RUNCORN GROUP, Routing Point HUYTON, Routing Point LICHFIELD T V, Routing Point NUNEATON, Routing Point HOOTON, Routing Point STAFFORD GROUP, Routing Point TAMWORTH]

route [Map MW]

route [Map BL, Map CC]
Map BL to Map CC via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point BARNT GREEN]

route [Map CE, Map BC, Map CH]
Map CE to Map BC via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point SMETHWICK GROUP]
Map BC to Map CH via [Routing Point HOOTON, Routing Point SHOTTON, Routing Point CREWE, Routing Point WREXHAM GROUP, Routing Point CHESTER]

route [Map CE, Map CC]
Map CE to Map CC via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point BARNT GREEN, Routing Point SMETHWICK GROUP]

route [Map BD, Map CH]
Map BD to Map CH via [Routing Point SHOTTON, Routing Point WREXHAM GROUP, Routing Point CREWE, Routing Point CHESTER]

route [Map CE, Map BC]
Map CE to Map BC via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point SMETHWICK GROUP]

route [Map BL, Map BC, Map CH]
Map BL to Map BC via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP]
Map BC to Map CH via [Routing Point HOOTON, Routing Point SHOTTON, Routing Point CREWE, Routing Point WREXHAM GROUP, Routing Point CHESTER]

route [Map SB, Map CE, Map CC]
Map SB to Map CE via [Routing Point CARDIFF CENTRAL, Routing Point SWINDON (WILTS), Routing Point NEWPORT (S.WALES), Routing Point PONTYPRIDD, Routing Point CHIPPENHAM, Routing Point BRISTOL GROUP, Routing Point BATH SPA, Routing Point BRIDGEND, Routing Point SWANSEA GROUP]
Map CE to Map CC via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point BARNT GREEN, Routing Point SMETHWICK GROUP]

route [Map SB, Map CE, Map BC, Map CH]
Map SB to Map CE via [Routing Point CARDIFF CENTRAL, Routing Point SWINDON (WILTS), Routing Point NEWPORT (S.WALES), Routing Point PONTYPRIDD, Routing Point CHIPPENHAM, Routing Point BRISTOL GROUP, Routing Point BATH SPA, Routing Point BRIDGEND, Routing Point SWANSEA GROUP]
Map CE to Map BC via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point SMETHWICK GROUP]
Map BC to Map CH via [Routing Point HOOTON, Routing Point SHOTTON, Routing Point CREWE, Routing Point WREXHAM GROUP, Routing Point CHESTER]

route [Map SB, Map CE, Map BC]
Map SB to Map CE via [Routing Point CARDIFF CENTRAL, Routing Point SWINDON (WILTS), Routing Point NEWPORT (S.WALES), Routing Point PONTYPRIDD, Routing Point CHIPPENHAM, Routing Point BRISTOL GROUP, Routing Point BATH SPA, Routing Point BRIDGEND, Routing Point SWANSEA GROUP]
Map CE to Map BC via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point SMETHWICK GROUP]

route [Map BD]

route [Map MW, Map BC]
Map MW to Map BC via [Routing Point SHOTTON, Routing Point SHREWSBURY, Routing Point WOLVERHAMPTON, Routing Point WREXHAM GROUP, Routing Point SMETHWICK GROUP, Routing Point CREWE, Routing Point CHESTER, Routing Point WALSALL GROUP, Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point HOOTON]

route [Map BL, Map BC]
Map BL to Map BC via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So for example you could go Didcot to Birmingham to Crewe to Holyhead

 

[John @ home]

I have purchased a Standard economy single Swindon to Carrickfergus NI ... Route HLYHD Irishf CIV (Irish ferry dept 14.10)

The journey Swindon station have booked me on has a number of risky connections Dept Swindon 07.16, Cheltenham 0824. dept 08.42 Stafford 10.00 dept 10.09, Crewe 10.30 dept 10.45 Holy head 12.58. Ferry dept 14.10 via Dublin to Belfast 21.10 (OK with Irish part of jouney)

I would like to go Dept Swindon 06.41 Paddington 07.44, Euston dept 08.50 direct to Holyhead 12.58. Same ferry etc. Is this a valid route?

We have to assume that a Swindon - Carrickfergus NI route Holyhead & Irish Ferries CIV ticket takes the same route validity within Great Britain as a Swindon - Holyhead ticket. This is an assumption because I don't know anywhere that this is published.

If that assumption is corect, then your proposed route via London does not appear to be valid because the only Swindon - Holyhead tickets are route Not London or route XC & Connections, neither of which allow travel via London.

Checking the Routeing Guide in detail, Swindon (Wilts) is a Routeing Point, the only Routeing Point for Holyhead is Shotton, Swindon - Shotton is valid using any of 14 maps or combinations of maps, but none of these 14 include a route via London. So Swindon - Holyhead is not valid via London and, by assumption, neither is Swindon - Carrickfergus NI route Holyhead & Irish Ferries CIV.

If not is there a better journey that is valid with safer connections using the 14.10 ferry?

To advise on this, we need to know for which particular Saturday you have booked. There are problems this coming Saturday, 20 February, because engineering work means that buses replace trains between Oxford and Banbury. As a result, the 0716 Swindon - Holyhead 1258 is the first daytime connection on that day. The previous connection is

0042 Swindon - Newport S Wales 0204
0535 Newport S Wales - Holyhead 1005

You could increase your minimum connection time, currently 9 minutes at Stafford, to 10 minutes at Birmingham New Street by changing there instead. But this is not recommended because the minimum connection time is 12 minutes at Birmingham New Street rather than 5 minutes at Stafford. In any case, the two trains follow each other from Birmingham to Stafford.

If a 0042 start is not acceptable to you, and a 9 or 10 minute connection is not acceptable to you, my suggestion is that you return your tickets to Swindon station and ask for an excess fare ticket to travel from Didcot instead due to engineering work. An Economy Single Swindon (Wilts) - Carrickfergus NI route Holyhead & Irish Ferries CIV costs £44.50. An Economy Single Didcot Parkway - Carrickfergus NI route + Holyhead & Irish Ferries CIV costs £44.50. Therefore an Excess Fare ticket to travel from Didcot costs £0.00.

The importance of the '+' in the route description of the ticket from Didcot is that travel via London is permitted, including tube travel Padington - Euston. Make sure your Excess Fare ticket includes this '+'. It is needed to operate the tube ticket barriers.

You may then need to buy a Swindon - Didcot ticket. On Saturday mornings, this costs £8 single but Advance tickets valid only on the 0641 on 20 February are currently available at £6 standard or £8 First Class.

 

[b0b]

The importance of the '+' in the route description of the ticket from Didcot is that travel via London is permitted, including tube travel Padington - Euston. Make sure your Excess Fare ticket includes this '+'. It is needed to operate the tube ticket barriers.

wierd, because the permitted routes between Didcot and Shotton does not include London!

Didcot Parkway Shotton BC+MW CH+BC+MW LC+MW MW

 

[John @ home]

wierd, because the permitted routes between Didcot and Shotton does not include London!

Agreed. All the Permitted Routes go via Banbury.

But there are valid tickets available between Didcot and Shotton (or Holyhead) via London. The routes in the National Fares Manual NFM 05 CD are:

• BANBURY
• +VWC & CONNECTNS
• XC &CONNECTIONS

This example adds weight to my theory that the Routeing Guide is of very limited relevance for Advance tickets. It may be a reason why all the ticket selling engines use different approximations of the Routeing Guide. And it makes life especially difficult for someone trying to write some computer code to figure out valid routes!

 

[b0b]

And it makes life especially difficult for someone trying to write some computer code to figure out valid routes!

I'm only worrying about "Any Permitted" right now

 

[bkhtele]

Gosh thanks for all your efforts on this guys no wonder I was confused. I am travelling Sat 27th.

It fustrates me that this ticket seems to be a zonal ticket i.e. the leaflet shows it as the same price from London, Swindon, Plymouth, Salisbury etc. I did read that there was a easement for zonal tickets and I thought that might apply and allow my journey via London: Appendix b Zonal tickets "any route within the zones". The leaflet describes the price for each way to Ireland from Zone D therefore could the ticket be described as a zonal ticket?

 

[yorkie]

I agree, better to buy from Didcot. If you already have the ticket, ask to 'over distance excess' the ticket, the price is £0.00. Good luck finding someone with the competence to issue that though...

 

[John @ home]

I am travelling Sat 27th.

CrossCountry report that buses will replace trains between Oxford and Banbury from 0130 on Sat 27 Feb til 0200 on Mon 1 Mar. See this map. As a result, your choices remain

• Swindon 0042 - 0202 Newport 0536 - 1005 Holyhead.
• Swindon 0716 - 0824 Cheltenham 0842 - 1000 Stafford 1009 - 1030 Crewe 1045 - 1258 Holyhead
• Over-distance £0.00 excess fare ticket to travel from Didcot route + Holyhead & Irish Ferries CIV

It fustrates me that this ticket seems to be a zonal ticket i.e. the leaflet shows it as the same price from London, Swindon, Plymouth, Salisbury etc. I did read that there was a easement for zonal tickets and I thought that might apply and allow my journey via London: Appendix b Zonal tickets "any route within the zones". The leaflet describes the price for each way to Ireland from Zone D therefore could the ticket be described as a zonal ticket?

My opinion is that this is not a zonal ticket. I don't have the current edition of the SailRail leaflet and their website is most unhelpful (it is owned by ATOC). But I assume the information is similar to that posted by the man in Seat 61

Which British station is in which zone?
You can buy a train+ferry ticket from any mainland UK railway station to Dublin or any Irish railway station.
Zone A: Gwynedd North, Clwyd
Zone B: Greater Manchester, Staffordshire, Shropshire, Cheshire
Zone C: Lancashire, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Leicestershire, Northamptonshire, West Midlands, Warwickshire, Hereford & Worcester, Gloucestershire, Powys, Gwynedd South.
Zone D: London, Cumbria, North Yorkshire, Humberside, Lincolnshire, Cambridgeshire, Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire, Greater London, Berkshire, Oxfordshire, Wiltshire, Avon, Gwent, South Glamorgan, Mid Glamorgan, West Glamorgan, Dyfed, Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, East Sussex, West Sussex, Hampshire, Dorset, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall.
http://www.seat61.com/Ireland.htm

It seems to me that these are single (or return) fares from a named station in a British Zone to a named station in an Irish Zone. They are not zonal tickets permitting unlimited travel.

Which document has Appendix b Zonal tickets "any route within the zones"?

 

[bkhtele]

This is where I found it: National conditions of carriage
"13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within
the zone or zones shown on the ticket.

(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the
“permitted routes”.
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b)
above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you
to travel by that route.
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be
used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains."

Thanks for all your help, I will ask for "'over distance excess" at the Station and hopefully that will work. Then I can prove the route: by saying

"But there are valid tickets available between Didcot and Shotton (or Holyhead) via London. The routes in the National Fares Manual NFM 05 CD are:

+VWC & CONNECTNS plus a ticket Swindon to Didcot

Is that the best way to explain it?

 

[yorkie]

At the ticket office simply ask for an over distance excess, don't get into a discussion about routeing (some ticket office staff like to cause problems and look for any excuse not to issue an excess), just say you now wish to travel from Didcot. If they refuse to issue an excess, try at another station.

On the train, no-one will say a word, because it has the + symbol, it is routed +Hlyhd Irishf CIV. If a ticket has a + then no-one will question it at all, and the + makes it valid via London. The absence of a + doesn't necessarily make a ticket invalid via London but that's another story.

I can pretty much guarantee no-one will question a ticket with a + via London.

 

[John @ home]

This is where I found it: National conditions of carriage

But the first two sentences of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage are

When you buy a ticket to travel on the National Rail Network you enter into an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains you have the right to use. That agreement gives you the right to make the journey or journeys between the stations or within the zones shown on the ticket you have bought.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

In this case the two stations shown on the ticket are SWINDON (WILTS) and CARRICKFERGUS NI. So the ticket is valid for a single (or return) journey between these two stations only. A ticket is valid for unlimited travel within a zone or zones only if the zone(s) are named on the ticket, eg. an Off-Peak Day Travelcard from Swindon is now issued showing SWINDON (WILTS) and LONDON ZONES 1-6.

I will ask for "'over distance excess" at the Station and hopefully that will work.

Agreed. The important thing at Swindon is to ensure that the Excess Fare ticket issued has the correct route shown, including the '+' cross-London marker. If the first attempt omits this marker, refuse the ticket and tell the issuer that the correct code from Didcot is

Route : 00980 - +HLYHD IRISHF CIV

not

Route : 00980 - HLYHD IRISHF CIV

Can anyone with access to FRPP please confirm that the '+' cross-London marker is shown for DIDCOT PARKWAY - CARRICKFERGUS NI route +HLYHD IRISHF CIV?

Don't leave it until the day of travel. If the person at the station is not confident how to issue this Excess Fare ticket, come back to this forum for more assistance.

plus a ticket Swindon to Didcot

Agreed.

Then I can prove the route: by saying

"But there are valid tickets available between Didcot and Shotton (or Holyhead) via London. The routes in the National Fares Manual NFM 05 CD are:

+VWC & CONNECTNS

Is that the best way to explain it?

Proving that a route via London is valid is very unlikely to be an issue if the Excess Fare ticket has the '+' cross-London marker. Rather than introducing tickets for part of the journey, I would be inclined to quote page A4 of the National Routeing Guide

The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the Routeing Guide.
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/instructions.pdf

 

[yorkie]

Basically if a ticket has the + it is valid via London as described in the quote by John above.

If a ticket does NOT have the + then it is only valid via London if London is on a permitted route for the ticket (ie it is the shortest - unlikely in such circumstances - or is a mapped route). I have used tickets that have not had the + and had no problems using them via London except with LU barrier drones. I'm not sure if it's still the case but the brainless ones could be avoided at Paddington anyway so I only had to argue with them at King's Cross (I have to question the intelligence of some of them) and I just kept arguing and baffling them with the RG until one with some sense them told the brainless one to let us through.

But they're told to accept tickets with the '+' and your ticket should have the '+' (according to Avantix Traveller NFM05 it does) so there will be no problem.

As for the zonal tickets, zonal pricing does not make a ticket a zonal ticket. All point-to-point tickets wholly within London are now zonally priced, that doesn't make them zonal tickets.

 

[bkhtele]

That is great I will pop into the station by early next week, and let you all know my progress! Thanks for all the information, I have learnt a lot
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Success, I am a proud owner of a "over distance excess" routed +Hlyhd Irishf CIV. Swindon staff were great and did exactly as I asked them following your advice. Thank you all for your help.

Interestingly last night I looked on raileasy web site (usually best for rail sail tickets) could fine no Didcot to Dublin tickets via London. It was saying there were no possible journeys on 27/2 and obviously there are several via London and also Cheltenham.

There must be something wrong with the settings on the site. I could find Dover Priory to Dublin. Windsor to Dublin, Henley on Thames to Dublin, Tilehurst to Dublin, and Reading to Dublin all for £30.50 all via London! Anyway I have the ticket I need!