Routeing guide update 9 Oct 2013

[PG]

One major change I've noticed is that all Anglo-Scottish from Milton Keynes has to be via Carlisle. Using East-West connections to travel via ECML is not permitted anymore. Well if that's the case, then Off-Peak to Scotland should go back to being unrestricted as it was before.

Yeah, IIRC somewhere in amongst the documents was a claim that the East-West connections were only introduced when the ECML was being electrified and the ECML sleeper was withdrawn so that folk from Yorkshire could travel over the Pennines to connect into the WCML sleeper.

Err, really?


As Soil rightly puts it, its all a load of BS from ATOC, and the Dft (being really the Department for Roads) are just making sure they are covered if anything untoward has been done, as they haven't really a clue what it all means!

If anyone knows of a knowledgeable journo who would actually be able to devote the time to cover this properly...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Full context:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/180563/response/447396/attach/3/Annex 1.pdf
"As I have previously mentioned XXXX XXXXX has been working on a project to
represent the data held within the static Routeing Guide pages published on the
ATOC website, (rules, tables, easements and static maps), into an interactive
map display on the NRE website. The aim is to help passengers understand
what the routeing on their tickets really means. "

So they were writing a tool that showed people what routes they could take.

Which is a laudable aim.

Yes, that is correct. I know someone who has been involved in some testing of this new tool and their opinion is that it will be very helpful to lots of people, not just "nerds", and will make things clearer for all.

"the interactive graphical maps when tested, displayed unexpected and
unreasonable routes which would result in confusion to passengers and expose
TOC revenue. As the starting point of this work was to give passengers certainty
on what they could do with their ticket, this was clearly counterproductive. "

In other words, the existing routeing guide included a lot of routes they didn't like, but the number of people who understand it was so small that it wasn't a concern. They believed when developing their tool that by making the routeing guide accessible for more than a tiny tiny number of rail nerds that the outcome would be significant numbers of people buying cheaper tickets, and they'd lose money, but they didn't want to say that, so they spouted some BS about 'certainty'.

Not entirely no. The maps were fundamentally flawed and showed many completely obscure routes that were not valid using the traditional guide either now or in the past, and would never be considered reasonable by anyone. The maps incorrectly showed some freight only lines, junctions which didn't exist, as well as routes which only have "diversionary" services for the journey in question. These errors obviously need to be corrected to avoid causing more confusion.


.[/QUOTE]

I agree with soil's analysis.

The graphical tool sounds like the long-overdue basemaps project.

Yes. And when it works from what I hear it would be quite good. But it doesn't work.

 

[maniacmartin]

Passenger Focus's response to an FOI request has arrived

This is the juiciest quote:

We are aware that changes have been made to routes in October as a result of cross referencing between the National Routeing Guide (NRG) maps and the journey planner on National Rail Enquiries. This seems to have changed a number of previously valid routings. We believe that*the detail contained in the National Routeing Guide should take precedence and be the governing document, with the journey planner reflecting what it says.* We were not consulted about the need for this cross reference requirement and the subsequent changes it has made to permitted routes. We now intend to challenge its introduction.

 

[Deerfold]

Passenger Focus's response to an FOI request has arrived

This is the juiciest quote:

Yes.

This is what revived this thread from post #133.

 

[bb21]

Passenger Focus's response to an FOI request has arrived

This is the juiciest quote:

This baffles me:

We were not consulted about changing existing ‘via Birmingham’ flows, just about the creation of the new ‘not Birmingham’ flow, so we were not aware of the change and its impact.

Great way to agree to something without understanding the full picture. :roll:

Do they even understand the impact of these changes, ie. transfer of the regulated flow onto the Not Via Birmingham fare, hence hefty fare rises for those wishing to travel via Birmingham?

 

[PG]

This baffles me:

Originally Posted by Passenger Focus
We were not consulted about changing existing ‘via Birmingham’ flows, just about the creation of the new ‘not Birmingham’ flow, so we were not aware of the change and its impact.


Great way to agree to something without understanding the full picture. :roll:

Do they even understand the impact of these changes, ie. transfer of the regulated flow onto the Not Via Birmingham fare, hence hefty fare rises for those wishing to travel via Birmingham?

PF Translation=err, yeah opps you've caught us with our trousers down!!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Gentlemen, a gentle evening exercise for you.

Can anyone explain why a ticket from Blythe Bridge to Carlisle is routed ‘VIA CREWE’, when the next station along the line, Longton, is routed ‘ANY PERMITTED’ and thus can be used via Crewe or Manchester Piccadilly. The very same EMT services are used whether changing at Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent and then MAN.

Secondly, for a Sunday journey, why does the journey planner ONLY offer allegedly invalid routes via MAN when services via Crewe are also available?

I’ve done the legwork for you;

Longton to Carlisle
2 geographically obvious routes
Via Crewe and via Stoke-on-Trent / Manchester Piccadilly

NRES initially gives the Crewe option with an OPR ticket routed ‘any permitted’.
When ‘via MAN’ is entered, it gives journey options via both interchanges and the same ticket.

Turning to the next station along the line, Blythe Bridge.
NRES initially offers the same Crewe options but a slightly higher priced OPR routed ‘VIA CREWE’
When ‘via MAN’ is entered, the same journey options as for Longton are offered but no ticket is offered i.e. this is not a permitted route.

Turning to the October NRG, which I downloaded fresh today to ensure I have the latest version, it states
Longton – routeing points from the pink pages - Derby Group or Stoke-on-Trent
Permitted Routes – from the yellow pages - EM+CG or MS+MG

Blythe Bridge has exactly the same information.

So, why is an OPR from Longton valid ‘any permitted’ and one from Blythe Bridge ‘Via Crewe’, given that the permitted routes in the NRG are exactly the same?

Given that, apparently, NRES now overrides NRG in terms of defining the permitted routes, my regular journey via Manchester is now potentially subject to question by a train manager and me having to purchase a new ticket.

Of course I could go via Crewe, then up through Wilmslow to Manchester, complying with the ‘VIA CREWE’ restriction.

Can anyone explain?

I gave up on NRES when it told me that the only way to travel from Stoke-on-Trent to Edale was to go to New Mills Central, walk to New Mills Newtown and continue my journey by train on from there.

I've calculated the mileage according to National Rail Timetable:

Common section of route, Stoke-on-Trent to Preston:

Via Crewe – 66 miles northbound, 66.25 southbound (table 50 and 65)
Via Manchester – 68.5 miles northbound, 69 miles southbound (tables 82 and 84)
Via Manchester on table 65 – 69 miles northbound, 68.75 southbound

So, taking any combination, the maximum difference is 3 miles, the best case in my favour is 2.25 miles difference, so it always falls within the old 3 miles rule referred to elsewhere, if that still means anything.

 

[Romilly]

So, why is an OPR from Longton valid ‘any permitted’ and one from Blythe Bridge ‘Via Crewe’, given that the permitted routes in the NRG are exactly the same?

The East Coast website produced weekday results in line with the results you obtained from NRES. At a practical level, one (cheaper) solution for Blythe Bridge to Carlisle is to combine an Anytime Day Return from Blythe Bridge to Longton with an OPR from Longton to Carlisle. But that, of course, doesn't answer your "why" question.

 

[Starmill]

Entirely from memory, Longton is in the same fare cluster as Stoke on Trent I think, and I know Blythe Bridge is not (just look at the Manchester - Stoke and Manchester - Blythe Bridge fares for conclusive evidence of that!). I think it's with Uttoxeter and Tutbury and Hatton.

 

[kieron]

At a practical level, one (cheaper) solution for Blythe Bridge to Carlisle is to combine an Anytime Day Return from Blythe Bridge to Longton with an OPR from Longton to Carlisle. But that, of course, doesn't answer your "why" question.

Another option is to combine two anytime day singles with the off-peak return. It's still cheaper. You do still get Advance tickets valid via Manchester, as those are only restricted by operator.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Indeed yes, both good options.

It's a question on the principle rather than the practical day to day. When buying I split at Manchester or Bolton, depending on whether a TPE advance is available - assuming a through ADV is not available.

Its just that via Manchester is preferable to me

The general public don't know to check these things and shouldn't have to. Information should be presented to them in simple terms. I revisited NRES today and it will not offer a valid route / ticket combination for the journey. That is plain wrong. I know better but Joe Public would assume that no trains were available and get the car out instead.

 

[maniacmartin]

The abbreviation ADV is used by airlines. Please use AP

 

[bb21]

The abbreviation ADV is used by airlines. Please use AP

Please avoid using AP. In some railway circles, AP is used to indicate "Any Permitted", so best avoided, unless it is explained prior to use or that the context is clear.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Well, I've had a response from Bombay John at NRES regarding a routeing and ticket vaildity query similar to that in my post i.e. Blythe Bridge to Carlisle on a Sunday. Why do I bother?

"Thank you for your email. I am sorry to learn you are unable to get the required results whilst planning your journey online.

By default, our journey planner gives you the fastest way to make your journey. In order to get the required information you need to select the correct options and enter your choice.

Since you have not mentioned the date of your travel, I have replicated your journey on a random Sunday and I see one can make a journey from Blythe Bridge to Carlisle via Crewe. You need to select the option ‘more options’ and then you need to select the ‘route’ option via Crewe in order to get the required results. You can purchase a through ticket for this journey.

I hope this answers your query, and thank you for contacting us."

The whole point is that NRES is now supposed to show permitted routes, not quickest routes. Or at least the permitted route should be the default option, then if I want quicker journeys (with seperate tickets) I select that as an option? Just how does one determine permitted routes then? Spend all day putting in 'options' until one comes up which works? Surely I should put in my 'origin' and 'destination' stations and the journey planner should do thre rest?

 

[YorkC]

Just looking at the new maps in the last few days for the first time. I know they're trying to shut down the more creative uses of maps, but can anyone see any permitted route at all between Wigan and Alexandra Palace that uses NN+MN+EC or XW+MN+EC that a booking engine will issue reservations on? Seems to me that the only possibilities are changing at Leeds or York and these don't work as via points anywhere that I can see.
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<edit - aha, bit of luck for another similar route. Details via PM on request...>