Routeing Guide Maps

[Solent&Wessex]

Just a quick question as I cannot find an answer to this-

When using the maps from the Routeing Guide to map a permitted route, and one of maps is ZZ Sleeper Trains, does this mean the routes shown are only valid using Sleeper Trains, or ANY train that uses those routes. I'm using my mobile at the moment and I cannot find a documented answer either way.

 

[Intermodal]

If the route on the map ZZ varies from the route shown on other maps for the journey then that is a permitted route for sleeper trains only. It says so on the map:

Variations from routes shown here are permitted routes for sleeper trains only.

That is my understanding of it anyway.

 

[John @ home]

When using the maps from the Routeing Guide to map a permitted route, and one of maps is ZZ Sleeper Trains, does this mean the routes shown are only valid using Sleeper Trains, or ANY train that uses those routes. I'm using my mobile at the moment and I cannot find a documented answer either way.

I don't think this is defined anywhere. My searches for a documented answer have been unsuccessful.

If the route on the map ZZ varies from the route shown on other maps for the journey then that is a permitted route for sleeper trains only.

I don't think this is stated anywhere.

It says so on the map:

Variations from routes shown here are permitted routes for sleeper trains only.

That is my understanding of it anyway.

This addresses a different point, which is made clear by the full quotation from map ZZ:

For operating convenience sleeper trains sometimes use lines not on this map, but the timetabled service stops at these stations (except Newton). Variations from routes shown here are permitted routes for sleeper trains only.

This deals with the position where a passenger is using a sleeper train which deviates from the route shown on map ZZ, and makes the deviation a Permitted Route when travelling by sleeper train only. It does not deal with the position where a passenger travels on a non-sleeper train by map ZZ, using a route which is not permitted by any other rule. In my opinion, the validity of that is not specifically defined.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The only place it was written in the paper guide was on the map itself, it was quite clear the map was for sleeper trains only. (Un)fortunately, that text seems to have been omitted from the online version. I would say, based on the current wording in the guide, it is for all trains, not just sleepers, although it is clearly not the intention of the map.

 

[John @ home]

The only place it was written in the paper guide was on the map itself, it was quite clear the map was for sleeper trains only.

I agree with hairyhandedfool. In the August 1997 National Routeing Guide, map ZZ states:

ONLY FOR USE BY PASSENGERS USING SCOTRAIL OR GREAT WESTERN SLEEPER SERVICES

That restriction has now been deleted.

I would say, based on the current wording in the guide, it is for all trains, not just sleepers ...

Given the deletion, I agree.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

In that case, consider the specific journey:

Glasgow to Leeds travelling as follows on a Sunday evening leaving at 1900hrs:

Glasgow Queen Street to Haymarket.
Haymarket to Manchester Piccadilly.
Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds.

The East Coast booking engine says it is not valid and will not offer any fares for the journey.

Trainline based booking systems says it is not valid and will not offer any fares for the journey.

NRES says it is valid and offers a fare for the journey, but upon closer investigation it turns out to be multiple fares, which you can't see until you dig deeper into the system.

 

[clagmonster]

Glasgow and Leeds are both routeing points. Routeing permissions are:
FK+ZZ+NC+MH+TP FK+ZZ+NW+GM+WY FK+ZZ+TP GN+NE MM MM+TP
MM+WY NE NE+LS WG+MM ZZ+NC+MH+TP ZZ+NW+GM+WY
ZZ+TP
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 347

None of the routeing permissions not involving ZZ allow the route, however, we can do:
ZZ: Glasgow-Edinburgh Group (Haymarket)
NW: Edinburgh Group-Carstairs-Carlisle-Lancaster-Preston-Bolton-Manchester
GM: Manchester-Guide Bridge-Stalybridge-Huddersfield
WY: Huddersfield-Leeds
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf pages 127, 85, 44 and 124

I agree with HHF and John that as there is nothing to prevent it, it is therefore perfectly to valid to use map ZZ when using daytime services only, therefore this route is permitted, in my opinion, on daytime services.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Journey planners are not foolproof, we have seen that many times. Just like our own advice, they are based on an interpretation of the Routeing Guide.