Route +VIA MANCHESTER: very quick question

[Hassocks5489]

Just a quick question please, to which I'm almost certain the answer is "No", but I'd better just check

Is a ticket routed +VIA MANCHESTER valid on Metrolink in the City Zone? Specifically for a Hove-Todmorden ticket for use between Picc and Vic?

Cheers!

 

[py_megapixel]

It won't be valid on Metrolink, but there is a free bus service available from Piccadilly to Victoria (route 2, every 10 minutes, from the station approach). Alternatively you could just walk, which at the busiest times will be not much slower than the bus.

 

[Hassocks5489]

Thanks for confirming - it will be the walk for me!

 

[Watershed]

Just a quick question please, to which I'm almost certain the answer is "No", but I'd better just check

Is a ticket routed +VIA MANCHESTER valid on Metrolink in the City Zone? Specifically for a Hove-Todmorden ticket for use between Picc and Vic?

Cheers!

No, National Rail tickets are only valid on the Metrolink if their destination or route is Manchester CTLZ, or if they are issued to one of the Metrolink Zones. These options are all only available for tickets from stations within the TfGM area.

With your ticket, to get between Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria you have the option of:

• Taking the hourly Redcar service via the Ordsall Chord
• Changing at Salford Crescent, where it's a cross-platform interchange
• Taking the free bus (albeit this doesn't run after 7pm)
• Paying for the tram (£1.40 - contactless PAYG is available, but you can also buy a paper ticket at the TVMs)
• Walking (it's a relatively straightforward 15-20 minute walk - turn right on exit from Piccadilly, stay on that road past Piccadilly Gardens and Market Street tram stop, then turn right after you pass under the Arndale shopping centre)

Alternatively you could also take an xx30 Euston-Glasgow service to Warrington Bank Quay and make the cross-platform change there for the hourly Northern service to Leeds - which rather conveniently stops at Todmorden.

The wait is about half an hour, but you connect into the same train you'd catch from Victoria if you caught the following xx40 Euston-Manchester service, whilst avoiding a change at Piccadilly.

 

[Hassocks5489]

That's an interesting possibility! Would Euston-Warrington-Todmorden be valid with a +VIA MANCHESTER ticket? I can't check the routeing guide at the moment. It seems like it should be, logically...

 

[jfollows]

That's an interesting possibility! Would Euston-Warrington-Todmorden be valid with a +VIA MANCHESTER ticket? I can't check the routeing guide at the moment. It seems like it should be, logically...

Yes; Todmorden has Manchester as its associated routing point and MA+NR map combination allows via Warrington to Manchester.
Incorrect, see subsequent posts.

 

[Jason12]

But the Northern service from Bank Quay runs via Earlestown group, which isn't included on Map combo MA+NR.

 

[jfollows]

But the Northern service from Bank Quay runs via Earlestown group, which isn't included on Map combo MA+NR.

I was just wondering this to myself after I had posted ... thank you! Would need to be map NO for that route to be valid, and NO isn't on any of the mapped routes between London and Manchester.
So it's not technically a valid route after all, that's a shame, because it seemed like such a good idea!

 

[Hassocks5489]

Thanks both. That's a shame ... back to Plan A via Manchester city centre!

 

[Haywain]

But the Northern service from Bank Quay runs via Earlestown group, which isn't included on Map combo MA+NR.

I don't claim great expertise on Routeing Guide matters, but map MA covers Euston to Warrington, and map NR cover Warrington to Manchester. I can't see what Earlestown has to do with it.

 

[Jason12]

NR only covers Warrington group to Manchester group via Irlam, not via Earlestown & Newton.

 

[Haywain]

NR only covers Warrington group to Manchester group via Irlam, not via Earlestown & Newton.

I see what you are saying.

 

[Watershed]

NR only covers Warrington group to Manchester group via Irlam, not via Earlestown & Newton.

Ah, I did overlook that. It's a perfectly reasonable route (indeed it's the shortest one-change route, from Euston at least). Therefore I think it's unlikely that any member of staff would take exception to you travelling that way.

On the Avanti train you are perfectly valid (as you could be travelling on via Irlam). Northern guards are generally happy if you have a ticket and you're vaguely going in the right direction!

The worst penalty that could befall you would be an excess for travelling "off" the permitted route between Warrington and Salford Central, and as I say, that is very unlikely to be charged.

 

[jfollows]

Interestingly, Warrington-Manchester via Earlestown isn't a mapped route either, and it's some 5-6 miles longer than the CLC route, however there are lots of direct trains. Technically changing (or breaking your journey) at Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown would not be valid!

 

[Jason12]

Ah, I did overlook that. It's a perfectly reasonable route (indeed it's the shortest one-change route, from Euston at least). Therefore I think it's unlikely that any member of staff would take exception to you travelling that way.

I agree that it's a reasonable route and Northern staff may not challenge it.

When the Northern service from Chester to Leeds was introduced there were a number of useful connectional possibilities created (e.g. Trent Valley/W.Mids to Calder Valley/W.Yorks) but because no complementary changes were made to the routeing guide, they never show up in journey planners. A few piecemeal additions of map NO have been made, but overall wasted opportunity.

 

[Kilopylae]

Technically changing (or breaking your journey) at Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown would not be valid!

I don't think it's clear that one is not permitted to break their journey when travelling on a direct train from origin to destination that does not follow a shortest/mapped route.

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't think it's clear that one is not permitted to break their journey when travelling on a direct train from origin to destination that does not follow a shortest/mapped route.

The guidance on how to use the Routeing Guide (here) is a bit self-contradictory in this regard.

The second paragraph says: that "a through train is advertised in the National Rail Timetable as a direct service which offers travel between a customer’s origin and destination stations as provided on the ticket that they hold for the journey being made. This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey."
This meaning of this appears to be that the route is permitted as long as the train could, in principle, be used to travel directly - that is, as long as nothing requires passenger to change. This implies that whether or not they actually travel directly in practice does not affect the validity - as long as every train they use calls (or has called) at the origin on their ticket and subsequently calls (or will call) at the destination on their ticket, they are fine.

However, the flow chart underneath says, about cases where one is "travelling on an advertised through train", that "the route is a permitted route for that journey", while in other cases it is just stated as a "permitted route" without the "for that journey" bit. This suggests that the through train rule only applies if the passenger is actually making the whole journey on the through train, and defaults to not being permitted (unless something else makes it valid) in all other cases.

I have no idea what, in reality, the rules are in this area. Perhaps someone who is better informed than me could comment?

 

[Kilopylae]

I think it's a grey area; a request to ATOC for clarification was ignored in 1999. With section 69 of the 2015 Consumer Rights Act in mind (ambiguities in consumer contracts are always resolved in favour of the customer), my reading is that one can break one's journey at B on a direct A-B-C train provided that one resumes their journey at B towards C on another direct A to C train.

 

[jfollows]

I think it's a grey area; a request to ATOC for clarification was ignored in 1999. With section 69 of the 2015 Consumer Rights Act in mind (ambiguities in consumer contracts are always resolved in favour of the customer), my reading is that one can break one's journey at B on a direct A-B-C train provided that one resumes their journey at B towards C on another direct A to C train.

That'd be about my best guess too, so my earlier example should be OK and would be unlikely to be questioned I'm sure (Earlestown or Newton-le-Willows) but I'd be reluctant to break my journey at Shrewsbury on the one Crewe-Birmingham service per day with a Crewe-Birmingham ticket even if I planned to catch the same train to conclude my journey the next day (even though we're saying that technically this'd be OK).

 

[gc4946]

I'm surprised changing at Warrington BQ for Calder Valley destinations from London isn't officially permitted now there's a direct Northern Chester-Leeds service.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Walking (it's a relatively straightforward 15-20 minute walk - turn right on exit from Piccadilly, stay on that road past Piccadilly Gardens and Market Street tram stop, then turn right after you pass under the Arndale shopping centre)

If using the main exit at Piccadilly it is straight ahead down the approach (ok the approach is curved) then continue ahead towards Piccadilly Gardens as described.
Turn right would only apply if using the 'new' side exit - ok it is not new now, its been there for around 20 years but most people tend to use the main exit if heading towards Piccadilly Gardens, the side exit being more useful for other directions. .

 

[Watershed]

If using the main exit at Piccadilly it is straight ahead down the approach (ok the approach is curved) then continue ahead towards Piccadilly Gardens as described.
Turn right would only apply if using the 'new' side exit - ok it is not new now, its been there for around 20 years but most people tend to use the main exit if heading towards Piccadilly Gardens, the side exit being more useful for other directions. .

I was writing relative to the orientation of the platforms, so by straight ahead (red arrow) I meant crossing the A6 on the footbridge, whilst by turning right I meant turning onto Station Approach (blue arrow)



The side entrance is also an option (either the one on Store Street or the one halfway along on platform 1), and the route from there to Victoria involves slightly quieter roads. However it's much easier to get lost if you use this route.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I was writing relative to the orientation of the platforms, so by straight ahead (red arrow) I meant crossing the A6 on the footbridge, whilst by turning right I meant turning onto Station Approach (blue arrow)

View attachment 112525

The side entrance is also an option (either the one on Store Street or the one halfway along on platform 1), and the route from there to Victoria involves slightly quieter roads. However it's much easier to get lost if you use this route.

With the graphic that does now make sense, but without that I think many people might get a bit confused by the earlier description