Route knowledge - do we need it?

[TDK]

Interested to know why route knowledge is so important - given nature of the job one would normally be working the same routes on a regular basis due to rostering and geography - eg a Manchester based driver is not going to be working the Welsh Valleys. But there are occasions as mentioned by some posters that routes with few services also have few staff with route knowledge which causes problems at time.

A "SATNAV" system will always tell you where you - their reliability is robust they are so cheap its is easy to have a back up one. As train crew will 99% of the time be working on routes that are well known to them - the chances of being "off route" if the whole GPS went down is pretty remote.

We are not talking about expensive in-cab system but a cheap and well proven piece of kit that could improve reliability and flexibility of services at a low cost.

A scenario for you. It is already a fact that SATNAVS are a distraction to car drivers, so, a driver is looking at his satnav - there are PWAY workers on the track, the driver blows the whistle late and hits one? This is a risk, obviously risk assessments are to be done on anything that is added to any train cab even the live overhead wire signs - Route knowledge is so imprortans because a driver needs to know where they are, where the next signal is, where the speeds are and where to slow the train down even in zero visibility - gradients are also very important for instance at a staion with a down gradient the braking distance can be doubled so a satnav will not help in this scenario, I hoestly think that it will never happen unless the whole system is automated and drivers are no more

 

[Zoe]

A scenario for you. It is already a fact that SATNAVS are a distraction to car drivers

How about having the car drive itself? Part of the input for the computer would be from satnav and unlike a human, a computer wouldn't get distracted. We have the technology for this now.

 

[talltim]

In a related question, do we need traction knowledge?
On a US forum (about Guilford Rail Systems) I asked a question about this as engineers just seem to get on with it and drive whatever they are given, (even far more modern locos from other roads) and was basically met with derision, along the lines of 'if you can't drive a train you shouldn't be a driver'! Now I am aware that these are freight locos, so you've not got all the passenger related door malarky etc, but I couldn't hep feeling that they had a point.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Aside from the 'computer says no' problem, I'm sure it would introduce complacency too.

I was trying to think of a situation which would be similar to 'train Satnavs' and all I could come up with is Taxi Drivers.

Before Satnav, Taxi Drivers knew where they were going, maybe not always to an exact street, but they could always get you pretty close before they needed to ask anything. Half the new drivers can't get you to a housing estate within four miles of their office without a Satnav (and some of those who have them still ask for directions halfway!).

 

[Zoe]

Well if you had a car that drives itself you'd have 3 or 4 computers where if one had a fault the remaining computers could "vote" if out. There's no technological reason why all cars can't drive themselves now. The same could easily be applied to trains.

 

[TDK]

How about having the car drive itself? Part of the input for the computer would be from satnav and unlike a human, a computer wouldn't get distracted. We have the technology for this now.

Will the SATNAV be able to detect a 5 year old crossing the road or a broken down car in the fast lane on a motorway?

 

[Zoe]

Will the SATNAV be able to detect a 5 year old crossing the road or a broken down car in the fast lane on a motorway?

No but LIDAR would.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/science/10google.html?_r=1

This car has been driving itself all over California without incident except when someone rammed it from behind.

 

[Rugd1022]

I can see where some form of in cab sat-nav *might* be an aid but we already have enough to do day in day out, anything more would just be another distraction. It might appear to some folk that we just sit on our 'arris all day pulling levers and pressing buttons but there's much more to it than that. As has already been pointed out, a computer cannot do everything that a driver can..... it can't open the side window and look back along the train when doing a running brake test to see that all is ok, it can't spot tresspassers laying objects in the four foot, it can't carry out emergency procedures, it can't go back to investigate a suspected hot axle box and deal with the concequences, it can't spot a car or tractor stuck on a level crossing, it can't put fires out...etc...etc.

Handling characteristics come into it in a very big way... you can have the same loco and same set of wagons from Monday to Friday and brake for restrictions in the same place but you won't neccessarily get the same feel from the brakes as you did the day before, in reality the job just isn't like that. I had this experience working a fully laden stone train down the Lickey last year on three consecutive days under the same signalling conditions (ie: a red at the bottom before going into the loop), and each day the 'feel' of the train was different. Another thing a computer can't do is spot 'black' or unlit colour light signals in the dark or in thick fog, it's unforseen situations like this where route knowledge really counts, there's just no substitute for it.

So until a completely failsafe alternative arises anything else would be a waste of vast amounts of money.

Nidge (1B, 81A and 2A)

 

[TDK]

No but LIDAR would.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/science/10google.html?_r=1

This car has been driving itself all over California without incident except when someone rammed it from behind.

That's fine and a good idea however I really cannot see how a computer or computors can mimic a driver as all drivers are different, some may slam on the brakes, some may swerve and some may just panic, I cannot see how this will ever be implimented in our lifetimes - does it compensate for ice, snow, rain, does it work in poor visibility? Ultrasound works in poor visibility but infra red does not so to be honest it may work in california in the light on dry roads that have hardly a curve in them but in reality in Central London in traffic I fear not.

 

[Zoe]

It's a curiosity that we ever allowed memebers of the public to be in control of potentially lethal blocks of metal.

 

[O L Leigh]

In a related question, do we need traction knowledge?

Again, yes we do.

Not all trains are the same, not just in terms of handling characteristics but also in terms of the things that can bring them up in a heap and the control systems. Even where two trains are outwardly similar they are not necessarily identical in all major respects. Being used to BR EMU's I wouldn't want to just jump straight into a Desiro or anything diesel and just drive. Even something as simple as coupling two trains together is going to be vastly different between types.

In addition, you need to know what to do if the train develops a fault en route. Firstly you need to be able to interpret the fault indications you're getting, work out what things might be causing it, go back and deal with those issues and then know what rules apply with regard to moving the train.

While I don't doubt that advances in technology are going to change the railways and the jobs that they support (heck, they already have), I fundamentally believe that one of the things that will never change is the knowledge required of the driver/traincrew. Drivers are still going to be required to have a full knowledge of the rules (which will be continually assessed as it is now) and a knowledge of both routes and traction. If you look at what is going on in the aviation industry with ever increasing levels of technology, both in the cockpit and on the ground, pilots are still required to known how to fly the plane in the event of technical failure and to be familiar with the airports into which they fly, even though all of these functions can be done automatically. This will continue to be the case on the railways too no matter what forms of technical assistance are brought in.

O L Leigh