Route knowledge - do we need it?

[deltic]

In the days of semaphore signals and unfitted freights there was a clear rationale for it but now?

My car satnav tells me the speed limit on every section of road and provides a warning of how long till key decision making points are away based on the speed I'm going.

How easy would a similar devise be for the rail sector. The "satnav" would be pre-programmed with train characteristics (weight, speed, stopping distances), as well as route characteristics (speed limits (including temp), gradients, location of signals, location of stations etc).

Driver therefore relies on a combination of "satnav" and visual indicators such as signals. This would radically improve flexibility and reduce training costs and be cheaper than full scale in-cab signalling.

Is this idea feasible and if not why not?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I wouldn't think so because the driver would still need to know the performance characteristics on the route for braking etc.

If you have the system tell him all that as well, then you might as well go the whole hog onto full ATO, but even then the driver would need to know everything in case of a system failure requiring manual driving.





PS I have visions of a train stuck in a narrow country lane and the railway blaming the wrong sort of satnav...

 

[Hydro]

There is a rail network positioning system on use on the test trains, in theory it could be used as a driving route aid, but would require a *lot* of time, money and data. It uses GPS, tacho and accelerometer input to determine where the train is, right down to the individual line, mileage, and ELR.

 

[Zoe]

As the network moves over to ERTMS I expect route knowledge will become less important. The driver would be given a target speed for the route set.

 

[Metroland]

Colour light signalling is actually harder to learn than semaphore, because it tends to be so repetitive.

Part of route learning is also knowing the special instructions, contained in the sectional appendix, for each location.

Having said that there is no reason an additional overlay to aid drivers and cut down route learning time significantly cannot be used, and indeed to improve safety, showing:

Location of each signal (though not initially the aspect in all cases)
Level crossings
Stations or goods depots
Line speed changes
Booked engineering possessions - real time updates from central database
Viaducts and tunnels
Limits of electrification & OHL neutral sections
Special instructions at locations
Possibly positions of other trains, and if they are running on time

Eventually such a system should be fully integrated with the signalling conforming to ERTMS standards.

The only surprise is the rail industry is so slow to adopt such technology, considering it is so widely used in road and air transport.

 

[tbtc]

It'd be good if something could be done - there are a lot of infrequent services round here where there aren't a lot of staff trained to do the line. For example, the Saturday-only line from Gainsborough to Grimsby is only "known" by a handful of Northern staff, which makes it hard to organise staff holidays/ cover for illness etc.

Similarly, operators like XC will need staff trained on a variety of routes because they could easily be diverted via a number of alternative lines (due to disruption).

I'd be interested to see what technology could do to help things.

What is the current frequency to refresh "knowledge"?

 

[Zoe]

Any such technology would though have the ability to make trains driverless in the future.

 

[MadCommuter]

Any such technology would though have the ability to make trains driverless in the future.

Anyone asked Bob Crow for his thoughts?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

As the network moves over to ERTMS I expect route knowledge will become less important. The driver would be given a target speed for the route set.

Basically, that's how TVM 430 on TGVs (inc Eurostars) work. No signals, just a display telling you what speed to proceed. It works!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anyone asked Bob Crow for his thoughts?

He doesn't think, he just reacts.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

without getting into "another" union row lol, the costs in this country of implementing any such system is extremely prohibitive to say the least, and regarding Mainline driverless trains, if memory serves me correct (from one of my books) they trialed Driverless trains in the early 80's around the East Didsbury area on the Styal Line, you can still see some of the wiring in the 4ft, obviously it wasn't successful then but admittedly technology has moved forward.

However

with the amount of different systems in use from old semaphore signalling to Ansaldo, another system would probably just crash the system lol

 

[deltic]

Some interesting responses - and more positive than I expected.

I feel the rail industry immediately goes for the expensive all singing and dancing option eg full in cab signalling which is fine for new lines but as mentioned would be prohibitive to retrofit across the network and was one of the downfalls of the WCML original upgrade programme. What I'm more interested in is using existing market ready technology such as "satnav" which has been used for shipping and aircraft navigation for decades. The not invented here philosophy seems to be engrained within UK rail sector (including regulators and DfT)

 

[Zoe]

I feel the rail industry immediately goes for the expensive all singing and dancing option eg full in cab signalling which is fine for new lines but as mentioned would be prohibitive to retrofit across the network and was one of the downfalls of the WCML original upgrade programme.

I don't think it's the railway industries choice to make, I believe there are EU directive mandating the interoperability of trains thorughout the EU.

 

[deltic]

I don't think it's the railway industries choice to make, I believe there are EU directive mandating the interoperability of trains thorughout the EU.

My understanding is that only applies to new high speed lines - for operation on existing lines still need to meet the requirements of each countries' infrastructure provider.

 

[TDK]

You cannot rely on SATNAV I think route knowledge is the most important part of a drivers training, if you where you are all the time this makes the job a whole lot easier, as for aids and in cab signalling, fine but at what cost, route training does not cast a lot when you think of what the extra electronic aids would cos, if one of these failed the train would not be able to continue.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You cannot rely on SATNAV I think route knowledge is the most important part of a drivers training, if you where you are all the time this makes the job a whole lot easier, as for aids and in cab signalling, fine but at what cost, route training does not cast a lot when you think of what the extra electronic aids would cos, if one of these failed the train would not be able to continue.

Route Knowlege is not only Vital for the Driver, it is also Vital for the guard, especially in cases of an emergency etc. you still can't beat trained personnel working the train.

 

[westcoaster]

But the driver still would need to be route trained, incase of a failure of the system.

 

[Skimble19]

The problem is, yes, it could be incredibly helpful, but if staff still need to be fully trained in case it fails anyway it makes it all a bit pointless...

Anyone asked Bob Crow for his thoughts?

"Yet again this shows why the railways must be nationalised"

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[strange6]

Personally, I would feel more comfortable with a driver knowing the route like the back of his hand rather than some kind of technology.

 

[deltic]

You cannot rely on SATNAV I think route knowledge is the most important part of a drivers training, if you where you are all the time this makes the job a whole lot easier, as for aids and in cab signalling, fine but at what cost, route training does not cast a lot when you think of what the extra electronic aids would cos, if one of these failed the train would not be able to continue.

Interested to know why route knowledge is so important - given nature of the job one would normally be working the same routes on a regular basis due to rostering and geography - eg a Manchester based driver is not going to be working the Welsh Valleys. But there are occasions as mentioned by some posters that routes with few services also have few staff with route knowledge which causes problems at time.

A "SATNAV" system will always tell you where you - their reliability is robust they are so cheap its is easy to have a back up one. As train crew will 99% of the time be working on routes that are well known to them - the chances of being "off route" if the whole GPS went down is pretty remote.

We are not talking about expensive in-cab system but a cheap and well proven piece of kit that could improve reliability and flexibility of services at a low cost.

 

[notadriver]

I think that together with GPS train spotters could link it up to a PSP and drive the train remotely. The person in the front would just be there to drive if there were no trainspotters to drive.

 

[the sniper]

A "SATNAV" system will always tell you where you - their reliability is robust they are so cheap its is easy to have a back up one. As train crew will 99% of the time be working on routes that are well known to them - the chances of being "off route" if the whole GPS went down is pretty remote.

I don't think route knowledge is just limited to the actual driving of the route though, it includes things like knowing where signal telephones are located and safe walking routes to such things. I assume route knowledge is also needed for instances of train evacuations, laying detonators in the event of a problem, ect..

On the latter point, you're basically saying that they'll have route knowledge of the routes they drive anyway, so the GPS failing isn't a problem. By this logic, a new driver will still acquire the route knowledge for the only routes they'll drive anyway. So, to answer the question in the thread title, yes, it seems so.

 

[notadriver]

Basically, that's how TVM 430 on TGVs (inc Eurostars) work. No signals, just a display telling you what speed to proceed. It works!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


He doesn't think, he just reacts.

TVM or ERTMS doesn't tell the driver when to slow down for stations nor where to stop on the platform.

Only the cab systems on the DLR and Central lines do this and they are meant to be auto driven.

 

[O L Leigh]

A "SATNAV" system will always tell you where you - their reliability is robust they are so cheap its is easy to have a back up one. As train crew will 99% of the time be working on routes that are well known to them - the chances of being "off route" if the whole GPS went down is pretty remote.

But if it did then the driver would be relying on the fact that the train is likely to be on a familiar route so that he/she could fall back on their familiarity with the route. I know, we could call that something like, oh I don't know, their "route knowledge". And what if the system crashed the day a new driver was out for his/her very first solo turn?

GPS isn't a robust system and is frequently wrong. The number of times I've almost hurled my PratNav into the hedge is now beyond counting. It gives spurious instructions and tells me I'm off-route when clearly I'm not. At times it's more of a menace than an aid.

But a driver's route knowledge is about so much more than "where am I?", covering things such as route risks such as wrong-side and multi-SPAD signals, low adhesion areas and other possible route indications in order to reduce the likelihood of an incident. It's true that a driver only becomes fully acquainted with a route as a result of experience, but I would expect that before that experience can be gained every driver is able to demonstrate at least a reasonable grasp of the route and all it's quirks before being allowed out there with a train full of punters.

O L Leigh

 

[junglejames]

Interested to know why route knowledge is so important - given nature of the job one would normally be working the same routes on a regular basis due to rostering and geography - eg a Manchester based driver is not going to be working the Welsh Valleys. But there are occasions as mentioned by some posters that routes with few services also have few staff with route knowledge which causes problems at time.

A "SATNAV" system will always tell you where you - their reliability is robust they are so cheap its is easy to have a back up one. As train crew will 99% of the time be working on routes that are well known to them - the chances of being "off route" if the whole GPS went down is pretty remote.

We are not talking about expensive in-cab system but a cheap and well proven piece of kit that could improve reliability and flexibility of services at a low cost.

Ha. Like The Sniper says, the reason these drivers already know the route so well is because of their route knowledge.
Then what about new drivers? Are they never to get route knowledge? (seems to be what your saying). So in 20yrs time it isnt 99% of drivers knowing the route. Its 2%. So then what happens when satnav fails?

Anyway, apart from this little bit.
Onto the importance of route knowledge itself, and the original question. I was getting very very very worried with the responses on here, until TDK came along. Route knowledge is so much more than just knowing the line speeds directly in front of you. What about line speeds further in front? Are you going to put future speeds up on this little screen as well? (its no good just knowing the linespeed 5miles ahead. You need others as well (ask a driver the linespeed 100 miles ahead, and he will know)) This satnav is going to have such a cluttered screen it will end up distracting the driver far too much. (We apologise for the fact your train overan the station, the driver was distracted by his SatNav).

OK, it has started raining half way through your journey. Now what? This GPS/ SatNav is not going to know the driving characteristics in every possible scenario. Does the driver have to go through the SatNav menus to tell it that its now raining outside? Whilst travelling at 125mph?? Dam, just overan another station!!
What if you suddenly realise that all these driving characteristics loaded into the satnav is telling you to brake too late considering the outside conditions you are currently experiencing? Apart from overunning the past 2 red signals, you are now stuck. What do you do? Do you cancel the train because the satnav doesnt have the exact prevailing conditions loaded into it?
Some may say this is down to traction knowledge, but in reality its part traction knowledge, part route knowledge.
Route knowledge covers so much, in every possible scenario. Stuff that you cant possibly get from a satnav without looking through menus etc and having a very very cluttered screen.

The only way this would be possible is with a fully automated driverless system. These are a hell of a lot more expensive than Satnavs. Plus, are driverless trains any good for mainline trains? I dont know of many in the world.

In short, the route knowledge is extremely important. It cant be covered by a satnav. It is one of the reasons trains are so safe compared to cars. The drivers know where they are going, and what they are doing. Not always the case with car drivers.

 

[hello]

give it 20 years there will be no such thing as train drivers

 

[ANorthernGuard]

give it 20 years there will be no such thing as train drivers

They said that 20 years ago lol, they also said there would be no need for pilots, we wouldn't use fossil fuels for our cars and Manchester United wouldn't win the Premier league lol

 

[87015]

In short, the route knowledge is extremely important. It cant be covered by a satnav. It is one of the reasons trains are so safe compared to cars. The drivers know where they are going, and what they are doing. Not always the case with car drivers.

Or some open-access operators of suspect repute. Apparently.

 

[Metroland]

GPS isn't a robust system and is frequently wrong. The number of times I've almost hurled my PratNav into the hedge is now beyond counting. It gives spurious instructions and tells me I'm off-route when clearly I'm not. At times it's more of a menace than an aid.

There are different grades of GPS, ones used for commercial applications like aviation, maritime, and survey work are much more accurate than consumer systems.

I will predict that there will be a root and and branch reform of how the railways operate in any case, which they will have to do to survive. There will be a lot more automation in all modes of transport, provided it saves money.

Semaphore signals don't really fit with the internet age, and as nice as they are it's quite ridiculous they are retained. Even modern colour light principals date from the 1920s and 1930s, long before GPS and cheap computer power existed.

 

[boboloco]

Sat Nav for trains! Whatever next? Route Knowledge is such an essential part of a SAFE railway. A driver often knows when a signaller or AUTOMATIC route setting has actually wrong routed him, because the signal sequences will be incorrect, driving by "prat nav" with no route knowledge it may be too late to stop when you should have just taken that last junction! "do a legal u-turn" not in a 1800ft freight train!!!

A computer cannot take into account different brake forces which depend on brake block wear and tear, weight of train, isolated vehicles and of course slippy rail conditions. A computer cannot get "a feel" for the braking of a train.

If there is an emergency a computer cannot protect the train, instruct passengers what to do etc.

I think the main stumbling block is cost. Not just reffiting trains, but signal boxes, stations, running lines, programming all local instructions etc. All too expensive! And besides would you feel safe on your automated pendolino with the knowledge that the 2000 ton freight train behind has just had a "computer says no" moment??????

 

[Pumbaa]

Or some open-access operators of suspect repute. Apparently.

Stir stir stir!