Route knowledge and speed limits

[notadriver]

I was thinking of two routes where a coach and a train operate to and from the destination. The driver of a national express 007 from Victoria to Coach station would have to remember the following :

(Victoria Coach station) 5 mph, 30 mph (all the way to the A2) then 50 mph, 60 mph, 70* mph, 50 mph, 30 mph (to call into Bluewater or Gillingham Hempstead Valley), 50 mph, 70* mph, 60 mph, 50 mph, 30 mph, 10 mph (Canterbury Bus station)

*coaches are restricted to 62 and drivers will do 62 on 60 mph dual carriageways and motorways. So there are 11 speed limit changes to remember less if the 60/70 are combined as one.

Train :
(Victoria Train station) 15 mph, 20 mph, 40 mph, 35 mph, 45 mph, 60 mph, 90 mph, 75 mph, 90 mph, 70 mph, 75 mph, 30 mph, 50 mph, 60 mph, 80 mph, 75 mph, 80 mph, 70 mph, 80 mph, 75 mph, 80 mph, 85 mph, 90 mph, 75 mph, 60 mph, 90 mph, 65 mph, 90 mph, 55 mph, 40 mph, 90 mph, 85 mph, 75 mph, 90 mph, 70 mph, 40 mph, 60 mph. (Canterbury East Station)

Over 30 speed limit changes for the train - this doesn't include any diversions to other platforms or slow lines. Quite an eye opener isn't it?

 

[causton]

I reckon it's down to the fact that drivers have to be able to drive at that maximum speed. For example, country lanes have a NSL sign but you wouldn't drive at 60 down all of them as you have to use your judgement when driving a car! However if you put 60mph on a speed limit sign on the railways when the current limit is 45mph for a reason...


...also another is that there would be potentially more if the national speed limit was raised, but that's another thing entirely!

 

[Titfield]

why would the coach driver have to remember them?

 

[notadriver]

Surely its as important for a coach driver to remember the speed limits as the train driver does ? Part of the route knowledge - especially speed cameras for the coach drivers.

 

[Temple Meads]

It's surely not as imperative for bus and coach drivers to remember speed limits, as unlike trains those vehicles can generally break on line of sight, although it's certainly good practise if a PCV driver can remember them.

 

[Jydo]

A coach driver would probably show more attention to detail in the actual route itself & not worry too much about speed limits, whereas I'd imagine it would be the other way round as a train driver as regards to speed anyway......

 

[Simon11]

What about all the road works!

 

[edwin_m]

A coach driver, or a tram driver or any other road vehicle driver, should be driving at a speed from which they can stop short of any obstruction. Therefore they should also be able to slow down to any lower speed on seeing the sign, even if they weren't aware beforehand that the sign would be there.

This is different from a train driver who is expected to have route knowledge including all the speed restrictions applying on the route. Although advance warning signs are provided for the more severe restrictions it is always possible that a sign has been damaged, graffiti'd or is no longer visible for some other reason. While unreadable signs should be reported (another reason for the drivers to know where they should be) the first train that arrives where the sign should be could be in serious trouble if the driver carried on at the higher speed.

You'd expect a coach driver to be aware of most of the speed limits applying on their regular run, if for no other reason than to be sure of avoiding any speed cameras. But although it sometimes happens there is no requirement on the roads to provide advance warning of a lower speed limit ahead, or of a new speed limit that may have been applied recently. Drivers need to see and react to these unexpected items in the same way as they need to react to other obstructions such as a pedestrian, cyclist, traffic jam, load shed from lorry or anything else.

 

[34D]

Surely its as important for a coach driver to remember the speed limits as the train driver does ? Part of the route knowledge - especially speed cameras for the coach drivers.

I disagree. Road speed limits can and do change with no publicity (apart from removed signs) whereas when you have a TSR you'll have a notice to read.

The coach driver needs to be able to read the road as he finds it AT THAT TIME not 2 years ago when a training manual was written

 

[SWTH]

I can't give an example from NatEx, but how about this;

547 Newquay - St Ives, approx. 50 miles long, 2h 06m journey (All limits shown apply to PSV, not necessarily car)
30mph, 40mph, 50mph, 30mph, 50mph, 7.5mph (private land), 50mph, 30mph, 50mph, 40mph, 50mph, 30mph, 40mph, 30mph, 20mph, 30mph, 40mph, 50mph, 40mph, 50mph, 30mph, 50mph, 40mph, 30mph, 20mph, 30mph, 50mph, 30mph, 50mph, 30mph, 40mph, 50mph, 30mph, 50mph, 40mph, 5mph, 40mph, 30mph, 40mph, 30mph.

Meanwhile, the driver also has to remember the following fare stages:
36. Newquay
34. Narrowcliff
43. Trenance Gardens
42. Treloggan
23. Morrisons
76. Rosecliston
75. Cubert X
186. Rejerrah
77. Goonhavern
78. Rose X
91. Perran Sands
93. Perranporth
92. St George's Hill
70. Trevellas
69. Barkla Shop
68. St Agnes
208. Presingoll Barn
667. Towan Cross
66. Porthtowan
65. Cambrose
64. Bridge
63. Portreath
62. Hells Mouth
61. Gwythian
60. Loggans Way
59. Phillack Turn
58. Hayle Towans
59. Phillack Turn.
57. Copperhouse
56. Hayle
55. Garden Center
51. Holiday Village
54. Lelant
53. Carbis Bay
52. St Ives
(Does not include through stages for other routes)

There are 87 official (i.e. 'flagged') stops, plus around 30 known unofficial 'hail and ride' stops in the rural sections of the route. However because of the popularity of the route with tourists (especially ramblers/hikers/walkers etc) in practice nearly everywhere is treated as hail and ride provided it is safe to stop. This illustrates the other big difference - PSV drivers have to also deal with the passengers.

As you know I'd never say driving a train is easy, but neither is PSV driving.

 

[notadriver]

That's impressive. How long would a driver get with a minder to learn a route like that and all those bits and pieces ?

Oh I just thought of something to compare with the fare stages which is the cab secure radio.

15 - 17 - 19 - 31 - 23 - 32 - 42 - 59 - 57.

 

[Vicpaul]

That's impressive. How long would a driver get with a minder to learn a route like that and all those bits and pieces ?

Oh I just thought of something to compare with the fare stages which is the cab secure radio.

15 - 17 - 19 - 31 - 23 - 32 - 42 - 59 - 57.

With the implementation of GsMR it's becoming a big issue. It's not uniform yet so we have csr also and drivers are already getting caught out when setting up

 

[SWTH]

That's impressive. How long would a driver get with a minder to learn a route like that and all those bits and pieces ?

Oh I just thought of something to compare with the fare stages which is the cab secure radio.

15 - 17 - 19 - 31 - 23 - 32 - 42 - 59 - 57.

I got some verbal instructions before I left the yard (left, right, left etc), and was told 'oh, you'll pick it up as you go along....'. 70% of the route I'd never travelled before, in any capacity. Took me around 5-6 round trips to sort out exactly what was where in terms of fare stages and stops (unofficial and official).

 

[notadriver]

Can we job swap for a day ? That sounds like an interesting and varied route.