Route Indicator at Stechford Station West Midlands

[pistonvalve]

Hi all,

Stechford Station down main - Junction signal CB4125 route indicator 'G' for the branch what does this mean? The old route indicator had a a series of lamps indicating 'right'

Mike.

 

[jfollows]

Hi all,

Stechford Station down main - Junction signal CB4125 route indicator 'G' for the branch what does this mean? The old route indicator had a a series of lamps indicating 'right'

Mike.

I'm guessing it used to be NS39 with a position 4 route indicator for the Grand Junction route, so G now means "Grand Junction".
From sectional appendix:

EDIT: I was surprised that this was possible, but https://www.railsigns.uk/sect6page2/sect6page2.html says

Alphanumeric route indicators are not suitable for high speed running. An alphanumeric route indicator may be provided on a high speed line if no indication is displayed for the high speed route, an indication being displayed only for a low speed divergence.

and this is a 20mph low speed divergence for sure, so that's OK.

 

[pistonvalve]

Thank you jfollows,

Does the 'Grand Junction' start at Stechford. I know the Junctions at Aston could be set automatic either Grand Junction/grand junction or Stour/Stour, does this still apply?

Mike.

 

[jfollows]

Thank you jfollows,

Does the 'Grand Junction' start at Stechford. I know the Junctions at Aston could be set automatic either Grand Junction/grand junction or Stour/Stour, does this still apply?

Mike.

If you look at the Sectional Appendix you can see the details, https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs/London North Western (South) Sectional Appendix December 2021.pdf is the one I'm looking at, Grand Junction runs from Stechford to Bushbury Junction I believe (pages 121 to 127).

EDIT Other lines at Aston are

• Vauxhall to/from Birmingham
• Sutton to/from Lichfield

... so I don't immediately understand your reference to "Stour" here. But if you mean "Sutton/Vauxhall" as one of your options, although that makes more sense, I don't know the answer to your question anyway! My guess would be that the transition from New Street PSB to a much more modern system makes the question meaningless, in the sense that what you describe could have been controlled by a switch in the PSB but it's all in a computer in the new system.

 

[pistonvalve]

Thankyou,

The reference 'stour' means - river Stour valley line from Aston to Litchfield which I assume was the old name before grouping

Mike

 

[jfollows]

OK. Currently the up/down Stour nomenclature is only used from Bushbury Junction through Wolverhampton and through Birmingham New Street to 112m 40ch (between New Street and Proof House Junction) when its name changes to up/down Coventry.

In about 1980, for what it's worth, the up/down Stour continued through Proof House Junction to Stechford, and then became up/down Main. However even then the line from Proof House Junction to Aston was the up/down Vauxhall.

But all I know about the Aston-Lichfield line is what's it's called today!

 

[pistonvalve]

All very confusing!!

Mike

 

[BarryD]

I had assumed alphanumeric route indicators would only be used where there are many possible routes available - which isn't the case here. Why not just a position 4 'feather'?

 

[jfollows]

I had assumed alphanumeric route indicators would only be used where there are many possible routes available - which isn't the case here. Why not just a position 4 'feather'?

Especially when the signal being replaced had just this! That's what I asked myself earlier today and didn't come up with an answer. I can only guess that if theatre/alphanumeric route indicators are in some way "preferred" nowadays, then this could be a reason. Personally I'd think that a position 4 "feather" would be clearer and less ambiguous and, after all, what does "G" signify, going back to the very first question, because it's not immediately obvious although with route knowledge I guess it should be.

If MS4388 were similarly changed, this is the signal on the viaduct in the up direction before Cheadle Hulme, protected by flashing yellows and, formerly, just approach-released, I'd be surprised. Position 1 means Macclesfield. So I find the Stechford change a little hard to understand also.

 

[O L Leigh]

I had assumed alphanumeric route indicators would only be used where there are many possible routes available - which isn't the case here. Why not just a position 4 'feather'?

Approach speed, I presume. Route indicators cannot be used at locations like Reading due to the high approach speed, so junction indicators must be used instead.

Approach to Stechford North Jn when set for the diverging route is controlled by flashing yellow signals. Therefore the final approach to the junction itself will be at a lower speed in anticipation of the 20mph crossovers. As such, I suspect that brings this signal into the speed range that permits use of a route indicator.

Happy to be corrected, though.

 

[jfollows]

Yes, my Cheadle Hulme "example" is a little extreme I suspect given the approach speed of the signal protecting the junction, but I'm still surprised that Stechford uses flashing yellows given the slow speed of the divergence - it wasn't allowed under the original standard. Given that the turnout speed is 20mph I'm surprised that much is gained over approach release from red, which was presumably what was used prior to the resignalling.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm guessing it used to be NS39 with a position 4 route indicator for the Grand Junction route, so G now means "Grand Junction".
From sectional appendix:
View attachment 106687
EDIT: I was surprised that this was possible, but https://www.railsigns.uk/sect6page2/sect6page2.html says

Thank you jfollows,
Does the 'Grand Junction' start at Stechford. I know the Junctions at Aston could be set automatic either Grand Junction/grand junction or Stour/Stour, does this still apply?

You can see from the SA diagram that the lines diverging at Stechford towards Aston are called Down/Up Grand Junction (even if they were not bult by the GJ!).
On a bad day in the Trent Valley this route is a vital part of the WCML recovery plan, and was used countless times for diversions over a number of years during the WCRM project.

 

[Wyrleybart]

All very confusing!!

Mike

It is. As "jfollows" stated above, the tunnels at the "London end" of New St are known as the Derbys and the Stours, when younger folk would assume the tunnel at the north end leading to Monument Lane would be known as the Stours.

Hey ho

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm still surprised that Stechford uses flashing yellows given the slow speed of the divergence - it wasn't allowed under the original standard.

Whoops!! Got to apologise. I've just checked the maps and it's not flashing yellows on approach. Sorry about that.

 

[Efini92]

Approach speed, I presume. Route indicators cannot be used at locations like Reading due to the high approach speed, so junction indicators must be used instead.

Approach to Stechford North Jn when set for the diverging route is controlled by flashing yellow signals. Therefore the final approach to the junction itself will be at a lower speed in anticipation of the 20mph crossovers. As such, I suspect that brings this signal into the speed range that permits use of a route indicator.

Happy to be corrected, though.

I’d have guessed approach speed but it could also be signal sighting.
When Salford crescent was wired, the feathers didn’t meet the sighting requirements so they were replaced with theatre boxes.

 

[The Planner]

I’d have guessed approach speed but it could also be signal sighting.
When Salford crescent was wired, the feathers didn’t meet the sighting requirements so they were replaced with theatre boxes.

Signal sighting would definitely play a part there, on a left hand bend with a bridge before it.

 

[edwin_m]

I’d have guessed approach speed but it could also be signal sighting.
When Salford crescent was wired, the feathers didn’t meet the sighting requirements so they were replaced with theatre boxes.

Approach speed doesn't seem relevant to me. True it is low when that route is set, but it was low before when a feather was used. Changing it costs time and money, not only in design installation and testing but also in communicating it to drivers. So I can only assume something to do with signal sighting.

 

[Efini92]

Approach speed doesn't seem relevant to me. True it is low when that route is set, but it was low before when a feather was used. Changing it costs time and money, not only in design installation and testing but also in communicating it to drivers. So I can only assume something to do with signal sighting.

The more I think about it, the less relevance the approach speed is. I’m sure there is a standard which says the maximum approach speed for a route indicator is 40mph. There is a split banner before the station though, which would also suggest sighting issues.

 

[MadMac]

The more I think about it, the less relevance the approach speed is. I’m sure there is a standard which says the maximum approach speed for a route indicator is 40mph. There is a split banner before the station though, which would also suggest sighting issues.

The “Rules of the Game“ used to be 40 MPH and every route had to have an indication: as mentioned above, the “main” or “straightest“ route doesn’t need an indication now.