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Route Branding Gone Mad

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ChathillMan

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Big fan of the branding they use. I used to live in Nottingham and GNE clearly have 'copied' Trent Barton. It worked there and it works in the north. The only people who appear mirthed by this are some enthusiasts.
 
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Anon Mouse

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Big fan of the branding they use. I used to live in Nottingham and GNE clearly have 'copied' Trent Barton. It worked there and it works in the north. The only people who appear mirthed by this are some enthusiasts. I find the overall service they provide excellent. From drivers to customer service staff

I would challenge you to get the number 91 from Norham Road North to Newcastle Central on a morning or the first 54 from Gateshead to Newcastle. Their buses are unreliable, they keep chopping and changing times, numbers and silly liveries, run secured services to the ground, don't respond to complaints, run early, run late and they were the first to ban their own weekly and monthly tickets from the succesor to secured services, Nexus Buses (Nexus branded buses operated by contracted companies inc GNE)

The only good thing is, they have brought back the OK Travel name, even if it is in a cheesy branding kind of way!
 

00armstrongi

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I would challenge you to get the number 91 from Norham Road North to Newcastle Central on a morning or the first 54 from Gateshead to Newcastle. Their buses are unreliable, they keep chopping and changing times, numbers and silly liveries, run secured services to the ground, don't respond to complaints, run early, run late and they were the first to ban their own weekly and monthly tickets from the succesor to secured services, Nexus Buses (Nexus branded buses operated by contracted companies inc GNE)

The only good thing is, they have brought back the OK Travel name, even if it is in a cheesy branding kind of way!

All of the secured services were Dunn-Line but they stopped UK work. Go-ahead and Arriva took over those routes but Nexus dictate the fares and what tickets are valid.
 

Eagle

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In Basingstoke, numbering services as "Jazz 1", "Jazz 2" etc causes problems on passenger information systems.

You'd think they'd tell the PIS systems they were called the J1, J2 and so on...

Just down the road the same company's Activ8 service is rendered on screens in Salisbury as A8.
 

bb21

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You'd think they'd tell the PIS systems they were called the J1, J2 and so on...

Just down the road the same company's Activ8 service is rendered on screens in Salisbury as A8.

They are stupid, simples. Things used to be so much easier when Basingstoke just had route numbers, which were colour-coded on the maps and sides of buses, and Activ8 was the 7, 8, 9.

You can give route brands and names all you like but don't mess around with the route number. To a passenger unfamiliar with the area, lettered initials mean absolutely nothing. What the hell is A8? Is that a new route different to the 8, which is what Activ8 really is? How about waiting at a bus stop in Nottingham and the display says I should catch an R1 bus for my destination. Now a bus branded Rapid 1 stops, shall I get on?

On the subject of stupid things, could TB please stop advertising the Leicester Xprss at Leicester St Margarets Bus Station. What do you expect the passengers to do when they get to Nottingham on one of your buses? There is no bus to get them back to Leicester.
 

Schnellzug

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You'd think they'd tell the PIS systems they were called the J1, J2 and so on...

Just down the road the same company's Activ8 service is rendered on screens in Salisbury as A8.

And what a silly name that is, it's presumably a Pun since there aren't an Activ1 - 7. Typical piece of Go-Ahead gimmickyness.
 

Schnellzug

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Stagecoach don't have that big a contribution, do they? W&D have the branding all over their buses, so I'd have thought it was their initiative.

* In other news, I notice, yet again, on their Web site, Due to increased government taxation on fuel and rises in operating costs, new fares will be introduced from 18 March
Thank the Good Lord for Yellow Buses, is all I can say.
 

MCR247

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In a straight-up battle between ex-municipal (RATP Yellowbus; NX Coventry) and county (Wilts and Dorset; Stagecoach Warks), the former always wins. Simple ;)

2,000th post on my 22nd birthday. Who'd've thought?

Happy Birthday :D :cake:
 

Drsatan

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Who was responsible for the name, Stagecoach or WD?

Both. The Activ8 bus was a joint venture between Stagecoach in Hampshire and WD.

Other than that I've noticed around Exeter Stagecoach has now branded buses with the "Ex-citi" brand name. A fair number of the regional routes starting from Exeter have been branded as well: for instance, the buses to Cullompton and Tiverton now have "Culm Valley Connect" branded on the side. I'm not a favour of branding a bus route simply to persuade more customers to use it - if bus services were adequately regulated and subsidised, meaning that bus fares were cheaper and buses operated later into the evening, there would be no need for childish brand names.
 

Schnellzug

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Both. The Activ8 bus was a joint venture between Stagecoach in Hampshire and WD.

Other than that I've noticed around Exeter Stagecoach has now branded buses with the "Ex-citi" brand name. A fair number of the regional routes starting from Exeter have been branded as well: for instance, the buses to Cullompton and Tiverton now have "Culm Valley Connect" branded on the side. I'm not a favour of branding a bus route simply to persuade more customers to use it - if bus services were adequately regulated and subsidised, meaning that bus fares were cheaper and buses operated later into the evening, there would be no need for childish brand names.

Hmmm, let's not open that kettle of worms again. It's rather like the "should the Railways be renationalised" argument; was NBC a paragon of service to the customer? Doesn't operating services commercially (something that Stagecoach do seem to reasonably successful at) save an awful lot of taxpayer's money?
 

Drsatan

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Hmmm, let's not open that kettle of worms again. It's rather like the "should the Railways be renationalised" argument; was NBC a paragon of service to the customer? Doesn't operating services commercially (something that Stagecoach do seem to reasonably successful at) save an awful lot of taxpayer's money?

To an extent, although ideally I'd prefer all bus services to be operated according to the 'London Model'. The PTE, local council or county council sets departure times, frequencies and routes, and then tenders them to an operator. Money from the farebox is retained and the bus operator is paid a lump sum to operate the route.

I'd also like to see greater use of travelcards valid on more than one operator (and valid on more than one mode of transport) and for 'buy before you board' policies to be implemented on more routes. The UK seems to be the odd one out in that passengers typically buy tickets from the driver; elsewhere in Europe tickets are bought from a ticket machine, or from a newsagents.
 

Deerfold

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Doesn't operating services commercially (something that Stagecoach do seem to reasonably successful at) save an awful lot of taxpayer's money?

Generally, no.

Profitable services result in the profit going to the operator.

The local authority then has to pay for other services to run.

The old model resulted in the first money paying (or going towards paying) for the second.

Now some campanies may be better than the old authorities at making a route commercially viable.

Interestingly Metro in West Yorkshire has announced it will no longer generally subsidise evening and Sunday journies on "Core Routes" as it argues that operators should take a bit of a hit on these as they are central to the long-term viability of the route.

It remains to be seen what the effect will be - it starts from new contracts starting at the end of April but will presumably give them more money to susidise other routes.

In the longer term they are asking to be allowed to operate like TfL in London.
 

markydh

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To an extent, although ideally I'd prefer all bus services to be operated according to the 'London Model'. The PTE, local council or county council sets departure times, frequencies and routes, and then tenders them to an operator. Money from the farebox is retained and the bus operator is paid a lump sum to operate the route.
That's the model NEXUS, the executive arm of the Tyne & Wear Integrated Transport Authority, are exploring introducing to the area the company that inspired this thread operate many of their services. Naturally, Go North East are against it, favouring more fomal partnership working.
 

Anon Mouse

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That's the model NEXUS, the executive arm of the Tyne & Wear Integrated Transport Authority, are exploring introducing to the area the company that inspired this thread operate many of their services. Naturally, Go North East are against it, favouring more fomal partnership working.

And can't come sooner enough, GNE have the brass neck to try and 'convince' passengers that this will be a bad move and will result in less buses and loss of service when suerly if Nexus controlled the bus service they will be run for the use of the passenger instead of the staus quo of being run solely for profit. Hopefully the fare structure might be a bit more stable too
 

Schnellzug

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And can't come sooner enough, GNE have the brass neck to try and 'convince' passengers that this will be a bad move and will result in less buses and loss of service when suerly if Nexus controlled the bus service they will be run for the use of the passenger instead of the staus quo of being run solely for profit. Hopefully the fare structure might be a bit more stable too

They've suddenly acquired a limitless budget like Transport for London? Where are they getting the funding from for this utopian situation? Do people still, after surely decades of experience to the contrary, trust Authorities to know what's best for the Public Interest?
 

Ivo

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In a straight-up battle between ex-municipal (RATP Yellowbus; NX Coventry) and county (Wilts and Dorset; Stagecoach Warks), the former always wins. Simple ;)

2,000th post on my 22nd birthday. Who'd've thought?

Not true! All I need to do for proof is go home to Southend, where the former county operation [First] are better than the ex-municipal [Arriva]...

Sorry for the late response.
 

Anon Mouse

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They've suddenly acquired a limitless budget like Transport for London? Where are they getting the funding from for this utopian situation? Do people still, after surely decades of experience to the contrary, trust Authorities to know what's best for the Public Interest?

I think Nexus will be a safer hand than the likes of GNE, Arriva & Stagecoach to be honest and it might actually give a chance to fully integrate the local bus service with the metro. Funding obviously will be an issuie but at least the bus service wil no longer be at the mercy of greedy coroprations. (it will be interesting where the funding will come from however, our council tax bill landed yesterday at it was already quite hefty!)
 

Deerfold

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They've suddenly acquired a limitless budget like Transport for London? Where are they getting the funding from for this utopian situation? Do people still, after surely decades of experience to the contrary, trust Authorities to know what's best for the Public Interest?

I don't think anyone suggested the fares would be at London levels which is why London's buses are so expensive (along with newer than average buses and investment in Countdown etc). Despite much complaining in London the fares are much lower than the national average.

If a route is currently run commercially then there is presumably money coming in from the farebox which could be used to pay an operator to run it. If not, it's no worse than the current situation.

This would be a way of introducing a fair method of competition between operators.

At the moment a small operator may think they could provide a better service on a route than an incumbent but if it's run by one of the big groups they dare not challenge them as the big group could suddenly focus on that route (and any others the small operator runs).

If they win a contract to run it they know they won't be run off the road for doing it.

I don't see why a local authority's view on what's best for us is likely to be any worse than a big bus group's view. At least people have some influence on their councillors if they dislike what they're doing.

Hopefully there might be a bit more stability on timetables too - I know people who wouldn't want to commit to getting a bus to work as it might not exist in a few months. I know I've bought advance train tickets 3 months ahead and then found out the last bus I expected to catch home was removed.

Equally, experimental services might be run for long enough to build up a bit of trade.
 

Ze Random One

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They've suddenly acquired a limitless budget like Transport for London? Where are they getting the funding from for this utopian situation? Do people still, after surely decades of experience to the contrary, trust Authorities to know what's best for the Public Interest?

I think there's two issues here.

1. Does public transport exist only to serve itself? Or are there wider economic and social benefits from it?

For-profit-only, unregulated private bus services will exist only to serve the former. Local Authority involvement is one, established, and accountable way of providing for the latter. And we do have a way of telling these authorities what is best for our interest - tried writing/talking to/voting for/voting against your local councillor?

But it is also true that economics play a part here - if a line is making a profit, then it is obviously doing what passengers want, the question comes when a line is not making a profit, does it still do what passengers or companies need? The answer to the latter is not always so clear-cut.

I would like to point out that we are the only western country to have deregulated our bus services the way we have. Not even the USA has been brave enough to attempt it. That may speak louder than any social argument.

2. If a Quality Contract Scheme is set up in Tyne & Wear, I would expect there to be some losers. Realistically, there is duplication and over-bussing in some areas. The Metrocentre - Newcastle corridor springs to mind, as does the Coast Road corridor. These services will have to be rationalised. In addition, there are some areas where local competition is keeping fares low (Sunderland for example), and this would go.

But there would also be winners. Some of the less profitable routes may see greater stability, and you would likely find it substantially easier to interchange to/from Metro.

Blatant land-grabs, like the X90 Tynemouth commuter express would be gone. That would put Metro on a surer footing, knowing that the rest of the bus network isn't out to deliberately undermine Metro, if it is profitable so to do. The real costs of operating bus services are not passed on to the bus companies in the same way Metro's costs are to Nexus, as infrastructure costs are not borne by the bus companies in the same way, and this is distorting the market at present.

Also, it should be noted that Metro fares are currently in line with, if not slightly cheaper than, the equivalent bus fares, so even if there was one unified fare structure, I wouldn't imagine a great hike in fares.

So there is scope for savings, without substantial fare increases. The true question is, is the cost of maintaining the status quo in excess of the cost of running a franchised network with the operators continuing to cream a few % off the top, while there is an increase in cross-subsidisation of routes? (Noting that some operators may be cheaper than the incumbents). Franchising like this may level the playing field a little, and I think that's what Go Ahead are worried about more than anything else.

Going back to the "branding" point, the municipals use branded routes, just like any other. I refer you to lines like Cardiff BayCar, Cardiff Green, Cardiff Red, Edinburgh AirLink, Reading JetBlack, Reading Vitality... NCTX have grouped all of their routes into colours...
Branding is useful for the passenger, possibly at the expense of a good corporate livery.
 

ChathillMan

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Can NEXUS be trusted to run a stable network? someone remind me how many times in the last year they have changed the Whitley Bay secured network again?!

People forget its the ITA's responsibility to promote public transport, NEXUS do the bare minimum. I hope GNE keep the brands coming, its working with passenger number improving
 

markydh

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Can NEXUS be trusted to run a stable network? someone remind me how many times in the last year they have changed the Whitley Bay secured network again?!
And that, my friend, is because the local bus companies keep changing and cutting bits from their commercial routes, meaning NEXUS has to continually pick up the pieces and amend their secured services to fill the gap. That is not NEXUS' fault and I'm pretty certain you've had that explained to you quite plainly on the official NEXUS forum!
 
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Deerfold

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People forget its the ITA's responsibility to promote public transport, NEXUS do the bare minimum.

Of course there's always the problem of whether to use money on advertising and promotion or continuing to subsidise services.
 

Anon Mouse

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Can NEXUS be trusted to run a stable network? someone remind me how many times in the last year they have changed the Whitley Bay secured network again?!

People forget its the ITA's responsibility to promote public transport, NEXUS do the bare minimum. I hope GNE keep the brands coming, its working with passenger number improving

And I never knew there were 'fanboys' on here! :lol:

I'm sorry but I fail to see how cheesy names and different liveries contribute to passenger numbers. Passengers use the bus because they need to use the service. I don't really think Commuters care if there on the Howay-5-O, The Red Kite or The Pink Panther!

I hope they get rid of the cheesy branding ASAP, In my opinion its awful. Bring back the red and white Go-Ahead Northern livery! :D

Anyway, as a previous poster has mentioned the 'constant' changes in the Whitley Bay secured services are not down to Nexus.
 
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