Rough Pendo's

[delt1c]

used the Pendos regularly when they were 1st introduced quite reguarly and was very impressed in 1st class by the ambience and ride. did a return trip to Stockport at the weekend , again in 1st , this was the 1st trip on a Pendo for 4 years and whilst the ambience was still Rst rate the ride quality left a lot to be desired. north bound trip was bouncy with noticable away and bounce.
Southbound had more move,ent and vibration than a rampant rabbit. Travelled in the leading vehicle, seated appart from rattles wasnt to bad, but a stagger (I was sober) was reminitance of a drunken stagger from an RMB travelling over point work at 100mph, had to support yourself on coach side and gangways. also what is the 6 bleeps that you could here over the intercom system.
has anyone else noticed similair rough riding on Pendos?
As a comparison I recently traveled from Edinburgh to KX on a refurbished East coast HST and you could have ballanced a coin on edge on the table

 

[asylumxl]

I believe the sets are going through a major overhaul program at the moment, which, while I can't say I've found this issue, should fix it.

 

[rail-britain]

Southbound had more move,ent and vibration than a rampant rabbit. Travelled in the leading vehicle, seated appart from rattles wasnt to bad

I agree that the noise and vibrations is increasing
Equally, the ride in the driver coaches is not as good as it is in the other coaches, although Coach K is acceptable northbound (trailing)

How busy was first Class?
I found on a Birmingham service, where most seats are used, there was less noise
However on a Glasgow service, where most seats are empty, the noise is more noticable (where the train is travelling at 100mph or more)

 

[Old Timer]

In my experience, some Pendolinos are less tolerant to track geometry defects.

That said it was becoming apparant by the time Rugby was being completed that NR maintenance had undone much of the track quality work on the WCML through indiscriminate tamping (in order to "demonstrate" use of the tampers for Industry political purposes) of track which was not only in good condition but had been installed to a much higher tolerance than maintenance tampers work to.

The outcome is patches of track that are now manifesting this in poor vehicle riding response. The disgrace is that having spent a fortune to bring the track up to a good standard, NR then spent money on needless tamping, and in doing so destroyed the track geometry that had been achieved.

During 2005 and 2006, Jarvis Rail expended a considerable amount of time, money and resources, re-tamping back into the correct alignment, track that had been tamped under unnecessary maintenance tamping.

I recall one occasion where a track geometry improvement site, which had been Construction tamped into its final alignment was re-tamped to maintenance standards, and then had to have a completely new track geometry design tamped back to restore it :roll: :roll: :roll:

Maintenance new about it but did not (even now do not) understand the technical aspects of track geometry. They seem to have a belief that simply running a tamper through a site will cure all ills - it wont - it will actually cause considerable damage if not managed properly.

Meanwhile sites that really did need tamping were being left to deteriorate to the point that when they were looked at, the remedial costs had risen considerably.

 

[Geezertronic]

From experience you always get a rougher ride in the leading vehicle just because it is the leading vehicle. So from my perspective (and because I always travel in Coach A), the ride is rougher from Euston than travelling to Euston (never had a reverse set).

As far as the rattles are concerned, I'm not surprised since the 390s spend a proportion of their mileage time at 90+mph and it really depends on what set you are on as to the noises you hear. The only one that annoys me (apart from when idiots don't close the toilet door properly) is the blind rattling.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hmmm.... I'm thinking that on my next northbound trip I'll stand in the vestibule in A instead of where I ususally do in E...

 

[Old Timer]

JUst so long you remember that the vestibule is the sacrificial deformation (crush) area in the event of a collision

 

[MCR247]

The ride is always worse in the first coach

 

[delt1c]

I appreciate that the leading coach will always be rougher, but on the Pendo's I have always opted for this when travelling 1st class , but definatley fels a lot more lively then a few years ago, wether this is due to the track or units I cannot say.

 

[Old Timer]

I appreciate that the leading coach will always be rougher, but on the Pendo's I have always opted for this when travelling 1st class , but definatley fels a lot more lively then a few years ago, wether this is due to the track or units I cannot say.

Track - Partially for the reasons I set out in an earlier post, partially because of natural deterioration.

 

[Pumbaa]

Another factor to consider - the ride is worsened by individual sets coming up for attention. They are currently mid-programme to have bogies and tilt refined and replaced as they come into the preset mileage zone by Alstom. Work happening at Longsight Willesden and Oxley.

Programme currently taking lots longer than expected; as sets come into mileage, immediate attention is given to parts on a priority list. Each set takes over a month to complete as part of its usual maintenance programme, which as we all know is pretty tight.

 

[rail-britain]

Each set takes over a month to complete as part of its usual maintenance programme, which as we all know is pretty tight

That means the entire program will take 4 years...
Or is it just bodge-a-bodge, and as each set appears

I would be very surprised if they are due such an overhaul already, I've not seen any sets with overhauled bogies

However, clearly this will be due during the next franchise

 

[captainbigun]

Pendos have been going through H1s for a while now. Bogies are overhauled at Longsight at a good rate in a specially setup shop.

 

[ainsworth74]

According to Rail 648 all the 390s have undergone their H1 overhauls and have now completed 1.5m miles in service and are starting their H2 overhaul. This take 7 days with a 390 being taken out of service on Sunday and final testing carried exactly a week later, before being returned to traffic the following day. The work includes overhauling the traction motors, carda shafts (anyone know what they are?), traction modules, pantograph tilt mechanisms, batteries are replaced, windows repaired, fans and transformers overhauled, callipers on the bogies are replaced, springs are overhauled and yaw dampers are overhauled. The H2 is being carried out at Longsight.

This is information that I gleaned from Rail 648 so if anyone thinks its wrong take it up with them not me!

 

[CarterUSM]

Do you mean a Cardan shaft? If so, all I know is that they transfer torque and rotation. I'm sure someone more technically minded can explain further though!

 

[87031]

Pendos standing the test of time mmmmmmmm :roll:. First time i had the misfortune to travel on one the first thing i noticed was how bad the ride was in comparison to Mk3s. Ride quality is a disgrace for a long distance train

 

[Pumbaa]

Or is it just bodge-a-bodge, and as each set appears

Exactly that. Tilt work was carried out at Wembley, am unsure what was done at Oxley.

I was unaware that stage H1 had been completed but did know H2s have started. 043 first in I think.

 

[rail-britain]

I will start paying more attention to each set as I travel on them, see if there is any difference
I am travelling on quite a few in August

 

[mbonwick]

Carden shafts are the driveshafts between traction motor and wheels.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

JUst so long you remember that the vestibule is the sacrificial deformation (crush) area in the event of a collision

Yes, I am aware of that thank you. I consider the chances of a crash happening as being sufficiently remote that it is not a worry.

 

[TDK]

I appreciate that the leading coach will always be rougher, but on the Pendo's I have always opted for this when travelling 1st class , but definatley fels a lot more lively then a few years ago, wether this is due to the track or units I cannot say.

I know this is obvious but was the TASS operating? If the pendos cannot pick up the TASS signal they have to run at a reduced speed (110mph Vice 125mph) and they are not good at running without tilt even at 110! This would cause an unusually poorer ride that you are used to!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Carden shafts are the driveshafts between traction motor and wheels.

Have pendos actually got Carden Shafts, I was led to believe that Carden Shafts were the linkage between gear box, engine and final drive on a DMU, I never relaised Pendos or any other loco/unit operating with traction motors had Carden Shafts!

 

[455driver]

The cardan shaft is what takes the power from the traction motor to the axle, basically it is a drive shaft (with a posh name), pendos and 91s have them.

 

[Geezertronic]

Ride quality is a disgrace for a long distance train

So the quality of the track on the WCML is now responsible for the disgraceful ride quality of all of the 390s? I've read what OldTimer wrote, have you?

 

[j0hn0]

Pendos standing the test of time mmmmmmmm :roll:. First time i had the misfortune to travel on one the first thing i noticed was how bad the ride was in comparison to Mk3s. Ride quality is a disgrace for a long distance train

rubbish, take a ride on the pretendalino on the same track and you may want to re-evaluate your opinion.

I have said for ages that the pendos get a bad press due to the state of the track. Sit over a powered bogie and you will understand what I mean, the track really is awful, especially considering it's recent "upgrade".

They pound up and down the WCML all day every day, any other train would struggle to maintain the timetable that they do

 

[MrC]

The cardan shaft is what takes the power from the traction motor to the axle, basically it is a drive shaft (with a posh name), pendos and 91s have them.

And classes 180, 220, 221, 222. The cardan shafts link the body-mounted traction motors to the axle gearbox on the bogie. I'm guessing this reduces bogie size and weight, and makes maintenance easier compared to bogie mounted traction motors.

 

[Old Timer]

And classes 180, 220, 221, 222. The cardan shafts link the body-mounted traction motors to the axle gearbox on the bogie. I'm guessing this reduces bogie size and weight, and makes maintenance easier compared to bogie mounted traction motors.

Axle mounted traction motors exert direct unsprung dynamic forces onto the track.
Whilst the early electrics (Class 81 - 85) have body mounted traction motors which were driven through quill drives, with the Class 86, the decision was taken to nose suspend the traction motors on each axle.

Whilst this obviously removed a number of issues which arose with quill drives, the cost was paid in track deterioration.

The track forces generated by a class 86 running at speed would be sufficient in really cold weather to actually fracture rail joints and cause the the CWR rail to break.

Subsequent modifications to the 86s to reduce the impact forces included the introduction of SAB resilient wheels, and latterly the introduction of the flexi-coil suspension springing system.

The same problem applied to all locomotives fitted with axle hung traction motors, unfortunately the relative difference between sprung and unsprung weight was exacerbated both the the light weight of the 86 (80 odd tonnes) and the continuoius high speed running, the effect being that the 86s imposed what was descibed as "hammer blows" onto the rail head.

This was the only weakness in what has been one of the few modern iconic and thoroughbred locomotives in the UK.

I doubt very much that any of the modern rubbish now skipping around like a ballet dancer will still be able to run in front-line service some 46 years after being introduced.

 

[MCR247]

Pendos standing the test of time mmmmmmmm :roll:. First time i had the misfortune to travel on one the first thing i noticed was how bad the ride was in comparison to Mk3s. Ride quality is a disgrace for a long distance train

Thats not a fair test unless all of the conditions are the same apart from the one you are testing so the line, the speed, the weather(?) would all have to be the same before you can make a valid conclusion

 

[ukrob]

87031 refuses to look at things objectively or accept anyone else's opinions unless they agree with his, it is pointless questioning them if they regard the WCML or Pendolinos .

 

[TDK]

rubbish, take a ride on the pretendalino on the same track and you may want to re-evaluate your opinion.

I have said for ages that the pendos get a bad press due to the state of the track. Sit over a powered bogie and you will understand what I mean, the track really is awful, especially considering it's recent "upgrade".

They pound up and down the WCML all day every day, any other train would struggle to maintain the timetable that they do

The WCML at 110 is a lot rougher that 100mph on the Chiltern lines in a 67, some of the track is awful for smoothness, I personally slow down below line speed at certain places and this is with Mk 3's as the ride for the passengers is not that good in comparison to other tack. There are certain sections that need relaying or re alighning toobtain a smoother ride

 

[87031]

even before the upgrade Mk3s still ride better than Pendos on the WCML, I know Pendos are going much faster but even at slow speeds the ride is poor. Ive been on the sleeper a few times recently and theres no problem with ride on the fast lines. Im not just having a dig at Pendolinos i want to like them but all i cant look past obvious things like ride quality and passenger enviroment.