Rossobus

[SCH117X]

The dubious honour of being the first Rosso vehicle to be withdrawn by Transdev goes to B7RLE CRZ9203, originally PO53OBP, which according to the West Yorkshire Information Service fleetlist http://wyis.byethost17.com/Blazefield.pdf is to be offered for sale in July.

 

[Andyh82]

The change to the 484 and X41 doesn’t seem to have gone down well, with many complaints on social media.

The main issue that has been overlooked is that the local bus between Ramsbottom, Edenfield, Haslingden and Accrington is now only provided by the long distance X41, which has to come all the way from Manchester and deal with the various traffic problems on the M60 & M66 before it becomes the local bus in that area. It also only runs hourly in the morning peak towards Accrington. With the best will in the world it is likely to be late quite regularly. It was also used by many school kids it seems to Haslingden High School.

 

[overthewater]

Just to ask were there any other buses running from Ramsbottom to Accrington, the only 484 only had to journeys at 0644, 0808 before the changes?

 

[Andyh82]

Just to ask were there any other buses running from Ramsbottom to Accrington, the only 484 only had to journeys at 0644, 0808 before the changes?

Yes you are right, so the point about the X41 being hourly is not relevant.

The fact that the equivalent of the 0808 now comes all the way from Manchester is valid though.

By making one improvement they seem to have made half a dozen things worse.

 

[overthewater]

The Magic of cost cutting....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What are the loadings like on 477 Bury to Ramsbottom service that goes through Summerseat?

 

[SCH117X]

On the Blackburn bus twitter they have made it clear the changes are to try to make the X41 sustainable as it has been hit by the increased train service between Blackburn and Manchester. The main complainer on the Rosso bus twitter appears to be a parent whose daughter has been late for school twice this week. If the withdrawn 0808 was used mainly as a school bus suspect the solution may be a Vamooz V41 school bus running at the times of the 0808. The WYIS fleetlist I referred to earlier has been updated and the Rosso B7RLE CRZ9203 (ex PO53OBP) has vanished from it.

 

[Andyh82]

Positives

Ramsbottom now has a link to Manchester

Negatives

Blackburn loses the X41 and the link to Manchester (by bus)
No longer a direct bus from Accrington to Blackburn
Existing part of the X41/484 route now has a longer journey time to Manchester
Existing part of the X41/484 route loses the links to Blackburn and Bury
Existing part of the X41/484 route is now only served by the X41 and it’s reliability will be reliant on how free flowing of Manchester City Centre is or the M60/M66 motorways

 

[goldisgood]

Positives

Ramsbottom now has a link to Manchester

Negatives

Blackburn loses the X41 and the link to Manchester (by bus)
No longer a direct bus from Accrington to Blackburn
Existing part of the X41/484 route now has a longer journey time to Manchester
Existing part of the X41/484 route loses the links to Blackburn and Bury
Existing part of the X41/484 route is now only served by the X41 and it’s reliability will be reliant on how free flowing of Manchester City Centre is or the M60/M66 motorways

6/7? They seem pretty direct

 

[SCH117X]

No longer a direct bus from Accrington to Blackburn
Existing part of the X41/484 route is now only served by the X41 and it’s reliability will be reliant on how free flowing of Manchester City Centre is or the M60/M66 motorways

Bit of a double negative their surely or was the reliability of X41 between Accrington and Blackburn somehow not reliant on how free flowing.....
If as they claim the X41 had sustainablilty issues then there cannot be enough passengers from Accrington/Haslingden/Helmshore to Manchester, and seeking custom elsewhere (Ramsbottom) is necessary to seek sustainability.
The route between Accrington and Haslingden is also served by the 464 to Rawtenstall and Rochdale.

 

[158756]

6/7? They seem pretty direct

They go through Oswaldtwistle, timetabled for 28 minutes Accrington-Blackburn vs 21 on the X41 route, which has no intermediate population more than 5 minutes walk from the 6/7.

Direct routes seem to struggle in East Lancs - the direct route between Burnley and Accrington (not via Padiham) is only hourly, again with relatively low population along the route - if you're going between the town centres the train is more frequent and in at least some cases cheaper.

 

[Andyh82]

What’s funny is that not long ago the direct road had M&M Coaches also competing along it, and at one time I think Blackburn Transport ran every 10 mins along it (with Lancashire United running the indirect 6/7). If M&M were still running, I wonder in Transdev would be allowing them free reign over the direct route.

 

[158756]

Positives

Ramsbottom now has a link to Manchester

Negatives

Blackburn loses the X41 and the link to Manchester (by bus)
No longer a direct bus from Accrington to Blackburn
Existing part of the X41/484 route now has a longer journey time to Manchester
Existing part of the X41/484 route loses the links to Blackburn and Bury
Existing part of the X41/484 route is now only served by the X41 and it’s reliability will be reliant on how free flowing of Manchester City Centre is or the M60/M66 motorways

The direct bus avoiding Oswaldtwistle centre I think is overrated - the speed difference isn't so great that it's worth waiting for the fast bus, you may as well just get on the next 6/7 that shows up. Haslingden, Helmshore and Bury also retain a direct, and faster for Haslingden and Helmshore, bus to Blackburn, but at a lower frequency.

The rest are clearly much worse than the old situation, but the clear message from the changes is that the X41 is in trouble. Competing with the train is always going to be a struggle, and it wouldn't be a surprise to hear Burnley's X43 struggling as well, but that will at least have more intermediate journeys to prop it up. Lancashire United's most recently published accounts didn't look too healthy either.

What I'm somewhat surprised by is that there seems to have been so much more complaint about the X41/484 changes than the 4 and 24 in Blackburn, where some (populated) streets have lost their bus service and others have seen theirs greatly reduced.

 

[Andyh82]

They are probably used to it in Blackburn, whereas Rosso will have been fairly static with little change in years.

I’ve said before that I can’t quite understand why the bus market in Blackburn is so poor, the majority of local services have been given up and are now run by independents runing hourly at best with school time gaps.

 

[overthewater]

That is the reason I dont trust Transdev with rossco, Blackburn Transport is just like Eastern Scottish Very little is left.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

The rest are clearly much worse than the old situation, but the clear message from the changes is that the X41 is in trouble. Competing with the train is always going to be a struggle, and it wouldn't be a surprise to hear Burnley's X43 struggling as well, but that will at least have more intermediate journeys to prop it up. Lancashire United's most recently published accounts didn't look too healthy either.

Out of interest, where did you find their latest accounts?

 

[158756]

Out of interest, where did you find their latest accounts?

Just the stuff on Companies House. 'Profit before exceptional items': £122k (down from £832k) , with a big exceptional item, on a turnover of £10.6m (down over 10% from £12.1m). Could be worse, but not the return Transdev are likely to want.

 

[SCH117X]

Direct routes seem to struggle in East Lancs.

Could be that no town outranks another for daily facilities so people are not pulled to a larger town/city centre that much and bus services rarely serve/benefit from out of town retail parks where the major retail investment has been.

 

[SCH117X]

Just the stuff on Companies House. 'Profit before exceptional items': £122k (down from £832k) , with a big exceptional item, on a turnover of £10.6m (down over 10% from £12.1m). Could be worse, but not the return Transdev are likely to want.

Those figures are for the year ending 17 December 2016
By comparison Burnley & Pendle profit BEI £1045k (up from £877k), turnover £11.4m down from £11.9m
Keighley & District profit BEI £624k (down from £989k), turnover £11.7m (almost constant)
Harrogate & District profit before tax £611k (up from £497k), turnover £8.9m (up from £8.4m)
Yorkshire Coastliner debit BEI -£15k (down from profit of £330k), turnover £6.7m down from £7.1m

 

[backontrack]

Is it time for Blackburn-Manchester CityZap?

 

[Andyh82]

Err no, as that was the Red Express.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The 484 through to Accrington is a fairly recent innovation. It competed with the X41 from Helmshore through to Accrington. The X41 used to go down the main road through Haslingden (via Lockgate / Road End) rather than through Helmshore (technically Gregory Fold). Upto 2001 the 484 was just 2 journeys per day. To 2010 it was hourly off-peak, then to 2013 it was half-hourly and extended through to Burnley. In recent times it has been half-hourly Accrington - Bury.

The X41 is an long established Ribble route: Clitheroe - Accrington - Haslingden - Manchester. Pre 1986 it was operating hourly, alternately via the motorway or Bury to Manchester. At deregulation Ribble and Blackburn Transport competed. Ribble with a Blackburn to Manchester service (hourly) and Blackburn (hourly) with alternate journeys running Clitheroe - Bury or Clitheroe - Manchester via the motorway. Ribble gave up by April 1988. Blackburn soldiered on but the service withered away to just 9 journeys per day in 2000 (every two hours between peaks from Manchester). In 2002 Lancashire United took over, operating every 90 minutes, and the service incrementally increased to the current half-hourly service by 2005.

Blackburn to Accrington direct was the main route (the 46), operating at frequent intervals, shared between Blackburn and Hyndburn. Via Gobbinland (sorry Oswaldtwistle) was the secondary route.

Ribble ran a 244 Preston - Blackburn - Haslingden - Rawtenstall - Rochdale, every 2 hours at deregulation. Preston - Blackburn remains, operated by Stagecoach (X59). Blackburn - Haslingden - Rawtensall remains as the new 481. Rawtenstall - Rochdale went a long time ago (via Edenfield not the mainline via Bacup).

Helmshore / Gregory Fold was only served by an hourly service in opposite directions with some short journeys in between prior to the 484 / X41 appearing / diverting.

The recent changes have cut the frequency Haslingden - Accrington via Baxenden (see the clue here?) from 8 per hour to 6 per hour. The journey time to Manchester is considerably extended. I caught it the other day and traffic through Edenfied / Ramsbottom was rather thin. An express from Manchester through Edenfield has been tried many times as a variant of the X43 - it has always been withdrawn after a while. The Ramsbottom bit has not been tried before as far as I can recall.

Problems getting pupils to Haslingden High School from Edenfield are not new. When it had the pleasure of my attendance, first year children (then at Haslingden, not Broadway) had to leave classes early at the end of the day in order to catch the bus home (or wait an hour?).

 

[158756]

Could be that no town outranks another for daily facilities so people are not pulled to a larger town/city centre that much and bus services rarely serve/benefit from out of town retail parks where the major retail investment has been.

Accrington town centre is certainly worse than Blackburn or Burnley, and seemingly getting worse, whilst still just about having a bank and supermarket. Buses to Blackburn now all go through Oswaldtwistle, which isn't too bad, but to Burnley via a tour of Padiham is tediously slowslow - there is an hourly direct route, but it lacks population along the route and is very susceptible to congestion.

 

[Andyh82]

The town centre that looks to be trading the best, at least on the face of it is Blackburn with its modern recently extended The Mall and Blackburn Market. Yet in terms of local buses, it’s the worst, with Transdev now running 0 truly local routes. Accrington has a comprensive network, albeit run by Pikingtons, and Transdev still run the Burnley network, although they are currently seeing a downgrade in the vehicles used.

 

[158756]

The town centre that looks to be trading the best, at least on the face of it is Blackburn with its modern recently extended The Mall and Blackburn Market. Yet in terms of local buses, it’s the worst, with Transdev now running 0 truly local routes. Accrington has a comprensive network, albeit run by Pikingtons, and Transdev still run the Burnley network, although they are currently seeing a downgrade in the vehicles used.

Blackburn should be doing best - it's the largest town in East Lancs, and has the covered shopping centre with the biggest name shops. Out of town retail parks haven't helped though. Burnley may have at last stopped declining - population estimates are up for the first time in decades, and Primark opening may be the most exciting thing to happen in the town centre for years. There are too many empty or poorly maintained shops though, a result of them being built for a town nearly twice the size. Accrington and Nelson town centres are dumps.

In terms of buses, Blackburn is the biggest town and with a growing population. Despite this Transdev only have the Mill Hill and Shadsworth routes left, whilst the independent local services are hourly and early finishing at best. Blackburn Hospital has a poorer bus service than Burnley despite lots of medical services being transferred to Blackburn. Why this is I don't know. Looking at the census for travel to work, Blackburn's bus stats were already poor in 2001, and declined more than any neighbouring area by 2011.

Pilkington's have very good coverage in Accrington, but personally I would find them much more useful if they actually ran at peak commuting times - I suppose they're doing school runs in the morning and as a consequence the traffic won't be there in the afternoon. They also have a raft of cancellations registered for June. What this means for passengers we'll have to wait and see.

Using those same census stats, travel to work by bus held steady in Burnley, a decent result for a shrinking population, but going to a more local level, areas along the mainline route increased while most others fell.

 

[SCH117X]

Transdev still run the Burnley network, although they are currently seeing a downgrade in the vehicles used.

Is a reburbished and solidly built B10BLE a downgrade on a plastic Streetlight?

 

[96tommy]

Is it time for Blackburn-Manchester CityZap?

Given how the latest CityZap is going I would suggest not. Blackburn already has a 2x the hour good train service running to Manchester which is not that expensive

 

[backontrack]

Given how the latest CityZap is going I would suggest not. Blackburn already has a 2x the hour good train service running to Manchester which is not that expensive

I see. Thanks.

That could be what Transdev are clearing the decks for though...

 

[SCH117X]

Given how the latest CityZap is going I would suggest not.

And how exactly is it going ? - any evidential data rather than spurious comments.

 

[96tommy]

And how exactly is it going ? - any evidential data rather than spurious comments.

Well everyone I pass one it seems to be carrying fresh air and this is what just about everybody else says as well.