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Rolling stock - the ticking time bomb

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daccer

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It appears that everything we thought we knew about the railways has been changed for good over the last ten years. No longer is the talk about decline and closure. Expansion and additional capcity is now the cry as more and more people try and cram onto the trains. Rush hour is now two hours long as the TOC's try and flatten the demand in the peak periods. This change has made many rail professionals, the public also, change their perspective on the industry and it is undeniably on the up and up. However there has never been a period of sustained growth like we have seen in the last decade in living memory and many are struggling to adjust. I think rolling stock provision is the one area where we are seeing this problem come to a head.

Just some headline figures. Say there are 10,000 vehicles in use on the network (I am not sure of the exact figure but it cant be far short of this). If we see 5% growth per annum, which is very possible once things recover, then in theory to keep the status quo on overcrowding 500 vehicles would need to be introduced every year. If the fleet has a life expectancy of 40 years then another 250 vehicles would need to be introduced to keep the age of the fleet the same. So in very simplistic terms 750 vehicles per year would keep the status quo as is assuming the above criteria. i know this is a simplistic view but it gives an idea of the volumes of rolling stock that will be needed to feed a growing railway. We are so used to decline and stagnation that not having enough rolling stock has never been a real issue for the network.

When was the last time we got anywhere close to this. What is happening now with the attempts at trying to get a couple of hundred new dmu's for Northern et al. Ah but I hear people mutter it is always cyclical and feast always follows famine. This may be true normally but there is a growing finance crisis coming so who will pay for these carriages. On top of that the next two large scale rolling stock orders will be for Crossrail and Thameslink. Both routes will offer many new journey opportunities and whilst they will offer some relief to existing services many of the journeys made would be instead of other transport modes and not in place of an exisitng rail journey. Therefore these massive fleets will havea diluted effect on current overcrowing issues.

So what is going to happen. The following is amost inevitable. Trains are going to get older - it used to be that 30 years was a good age for scrapping - it seems that 40 will become the new 30 - the 313's are 32+ and due to be cacaded to a new operator rather than off for scrap. The scrap men are going to have a very lean time of it as even the Pacers are going to be in demand for the foreseeable future. Overcrowding is going to get worse. When capacity is increased on certain routes I think you will see it go almost immediately as there must be massive surpressed latent demand on many lines which will just swallow up capacity increases (it used to be the mantra for road builders that no matter how many motorways you built it would never be enough. the same now goes for the railways). So what will the answer be if Govt and the banks cant finance new vehicles quickly enough and the franchise model is dependant on continued growth to be sustainable (fare increases wont always be enough to supress demand). Well we already have the answer and it is coming to the railways in growing numbers. The return of the loco hauled train in greater and greater numbers is i feel inevitable. When operators need to increase capacity they have to go for LHCS - there are simply no units available - FGW has stock on hire from ATW, Northern and SWT as well as some old Silverlink goodies and yet they still need an LHCS set. So those MK 2's and 3's that were deemed surplus years ago are now worth keeping hold of - this decade of growth has shown that the whole railway needs to change its mindset and the thought that locos and coaches are a thing from a bygone era is patently wrong. Investment in the railways is a habit that for many years the British Govt has got out of - there is already talk of scaling back some investment before we have really even started - it may be a case of make do and if so then we need to keep what we have as one day very soon we may well need it!
 
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tbtc

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Fair points.

Given the potential need for new carriages/ coaches (I won't try any maths myself, but I get the idea behind your calculations), it's frustrating to see such low investment, e.g. three additional carriages for EMT

We need to get away from the old "rob Peter to pay Paul" mentality, whereby regional TOCs can only have stock if they swap it with other TOCs, like the merry-go-round between ScotRail, Northern, LM, ATW and FGW for DMUs...
 

First class

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Well I think some things are going right:

Northern's 17 class 323s will go to LM. Their pacers will be scrapped and some of their DMU fleet, (150s/156s) will either go to strengthen other Northern services and/or go to other operators who need additional capacity/better stock, (i.e. Arriva Trains Wales in order to scrap pacers/ EMT etc...). In return, they'll get around 60 surplus 319s when the Crossrail stock arrives. They are guaranteed to be refurbished to a high standard and receive air-con. This now means a lot of routes where 2/3 cars were previously running, 4 cars will run as standard, primarily Liverpool-Manchester.

TPE will be getting bigger trains for their Scottish routes, (350/1s), therefore freeing up a hell of a lot of 185s, a lot more trains will be formed of 6 cars rather than 3.

London Overground nearly have an entirely new fleet.

London Midland has a reasonable aged fleet, with new 350/2s arriving regularly.

Virgin is having Pendolinos extended and they're new...

FGW is getting a new Intercity fleet.

NXEC is getting a new Intercity fleet.

Scotrail are getting new trains.

Merseyrail will eventually get an entirely new fleet of trains in the next 5 years.

Arriva Trains Wales has a lot of newish 175s.

and so on..... i'm bored now.

The point is, rolling stock is not this ticking timebomb. The older stuff is being phased out and replaced by new. Improvements are in the pipeline.

What does rather p*ss me off though is that yet again London gets the new stuff whilst the North gets cast-offs.
 

Daimler

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Well I think some things are going right:

Northern's 17 class 323s will go to LM. Their pacers will be scrapped and some of their DMU fleet, (150s/156s) will either go to strengthen other Northern services and/or go to other operators who need additional capacity/better stock, (i.e. Arriva Trains Wales in order to scrap pacers/ EMT etc...). In return, they'll get around 60 surplus 319s when the Crossrail stock arrives. They are guaranteed to be refurbished to a high standard and receive air-con. This now means a lot of routes where 2/3 cars were previously running, 4 cars will run as standard, primarily Liverpool-Manchester.

You sure about that? London Midland have tendered for 30 3-car EMUs - to replace the 323s, which will then go to Northern, or so I've heard!
 

paul1609

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If the plan for the 313s to Southern comes off they will only be in use for another 4 years to cover for the sub let of the 377/5s to Thameslink.
 

krus_aragon

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For the time being a lot can be achieved by rearranging stock allocations, making the most efficient use of them so there aren't empty seats lying about. But as our use of rolling stock approaches its most efficient, unless we satisfy:

Stock Acquisition - Stock Scrappage > Passenger Growth

then we will hit a glass ceiling of overcrowding.
 

First class

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I was under the impression that London Midland were having 350/1s TAKEN from them and given to TPE...
 

350401

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You sure about that? London Midland have tendered for 30 3-car EMUs - to replace the 323s, which will then go to Northern, or so I've heard!

I've heard the same. Northern have started re-painting their 323 fleet into Northern Colours at last, which implies they believe they are keeping them. When it was believed the 323's were going to LM, they did not bother to repaint the trains as not worth the expense for such a short period of use.
 

Pumbaa

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You sure about that? London Midland have tendered for 30 3-car EMUs - to replace the 323s, which will then go to Northern, or so I've heard!

I was under the impression that London Midland were having 350/1s TAKEN from them and given to TPE...

Still unclear. It seems at present that the 323s are going to Northern, with LM receiving a new fleet to enhance capacity, and replace the last 321s that have stayed on, and to replace some of the 350/1s (see below)

The 350/1s are going to TPE, with the fast Northamptons being covered by Intercity Express trains (new build) (or whatever it's called now), and the shortfall in extra units being covered by the new stuff LM receives.
 

The Planner

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Northamptons are getting IEPs ?? seems a waste to me. 350s are ideal for that run.
 

Waverley125

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basically there's some stock that's fine, some that's old and some that needs scrapping. I'd say that

fine (no or little change needed): Pendos, 225s, HSTs (refurbished & re-engined), Desiros, Turbostars, Electrostars, 158/9s, 320-3s, 332-4s, Coradias, 220-2s

Old (refurbishment needed): 150-6s, Unrefurbished HSTs, 314-9s

Scrapping: Pacers

When we look at distribution of stock, we see the pacers are mainly found in the south west & Yorkshire, the latter of which is a prime candidate for urban electrification around leeds, in the same way Manchester, Birmingham & Glasgow are. So it is Northern who will be requiring the majority of new trains urgently, along with FGW. Unfortunately the government has gotten into its head that northern is lying about it's growth rate (7% since the start of 2009 IIRC), and so will only need 98 new carriages. This is obviously rubbish, as just removing the pacers will require 205 new carriages.

IMO, the essential point is to stop focusing on london. By 2012, there will hardly be a train left on london suburban routes that's over 15 years old. By contrast, the north of england will have some of the oldest stock going. TfS will no doubt ensure new trains north of the border, so the first targets should be suburban electrification in south wales & yorkshire with new trains to run these services, plus new diesel trains to the south west & east midlands local services.
 

Daimler

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The 350/1s are going to TPE, with the fast Northamptons being covered by Intercity Express trains (new build) (or whatever it's called now), and the shortfall in extra units being covered by the new stuff LM receives.

I had heard that - just when we'd got a nice (nearly) homogenous fleet of quality units :cry:. Makes no sense to me! I'd have thought IEP's would have been far more appropriate for Manchester - Glasgow than 350s, and 350s in turn far more appropriate for fast Northampton - London commuter runs.
 

charley_17/7

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Idea of introducing IEPs for WCML South (Northampton fasts) is to do with capacity.

Two Desiros per hour eat up the line capacity of seven Pendolinos. Harmonising line speeds would release several paths per hour by comparison.

Harmonise speeds > more paths > more services > more seats > more attractive service.
 

Waverley125

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but then you get into problems, as you want two different interiors for IEPs, which would raise costs, so passengers on long-distance services are much worse off.

Are the desiros not using the slow lines, while the pendos are on the fasts? so while capacity is being used inefficiently, it's not actually being taken away?
 

tbtc

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Would this suggest giving the "fast" Northampton paths to the West Coast franchise (at the next se of tenders)?

(obviously there's a few swaps of services that could happen, which is proably another thread)
 

GNERman

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apparently the 333's will be swapped for 323 on airedale and wharfedale services and have the 323 running as pairs...

are 323's any good?
 

221_108

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are 323's any good?

Since London Midland took over the 323s have got better; with new flooring, new seat covers, thousands more stickers and some reliablity improvements (not sure what!).

However they have the most annoying TV's which I have rarely seen working and when they do are far too loud!

IMO the London Midland 323s seem to be in much better condition than the Northern ones however I have only been on one Northern one.
 

Daimler

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but then you get into problems, as you want two different interiors for IEPs, which would raise costs, so passengers on long-distance services are much worse off.

Are the desiros not using the slow lines, while the pendos are on the fasts? so while capacity is being used inefficiently, it's not actually being taken away?

Three different interior specifications are already planned for the IEP, so this is happening anyhow!

Desiros on fast Crewe/Northampton trains use the fast lines up to Ledburn Junction, and the slow lines from then on.
 
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