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'Rolling program of Electrification'

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Waverley125

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Though it was somewhat buried under the news of her departure, Ruth Kelly promised a 'rolling program of electrification, the biggest electrification program in Britain ever'. Seeing as this program would have to total more route miles than the Southern Railway post-WW1 electrification, this could mean a significant amount of wires going up. So where should they go?

London Mainlines:

Midland Mainline: Serves central england including Derby, Leicester & Sheffield, as well as providing alternative route to Leeds & Manchester. However, new 222 Meridians are newest long-distance trains in service. But, as members of the Voyager family, they could be redeployed onto cross country routes. Overbridge at Nottingham is too low for OHL, so would continue to require diesel services to London.

Great Western Mainline: Serves Bristol, the largest city in the Southwest, Cardiff and Swansea, the two largest cities in Wales. Currently the biggest home to HSTs in Britain, as these operate all long-distance services. However, line south of Exeter could not be electrified with conventional OHL due to weather on South Devon Banks, and OHL to exeter would be futile due to all trains continuing to Plymouth, Newquay or Penzance.

Branching off Mainlines:

Grantham-Nottingham: FCC trains currently terminate at Peterborough due to NXEC not wanting competition northwards from here. However, The MML timing from Nottingham-London is 2h20, compared to a potential timing via the ECML of less than 2 hours. Filling in the gap between Grantham & Nottingham would allow FCC to serve Nottingham & provide Grantham with a much better service to London.

Peterborough-Lincoln: Currently one of the worst served lines in Britain, it provides a route to Lincoln without using the crowded ECML, as well as serving towns at Spalding & Sleaford. Would allow FCC trains to be extended, alternating with Nottingham to provide an hourly service. Would also remove the onus on NXEC to provide this service.

Leeds-York via Harrogate: Would rejuvenate the Harrogate line, allowing a similar programme of improvements the Airedale & Wharfedale lines enjoyed. Would also allow NXEC to run more services to Harrogate, providing a turnback for services to Leeds from York.

Cross Country Lines

Ely-Birmingham: Would connect all 4 northbound main lines in england, as well as linking Felixstowe-WCML under wires. Would also encourage a better service on the Peterborough-Birmingham lines, allowing class 357 electrostars to be brought in, doubling train lengths & reducing journey times. Further diversionary route off ECML, and allow special trains to Stamford during the summer.

Liverpool Lime Street-Scarborough: Would allow 185s on TPEs (who have been a victim of their own success) to move onto other routes with fewer demands, and bring in extended, electrified version of the same, preferably 6 car, with full cafe facilities.

Leeds-Hull via Selby: See above, for TPE hull services

Doncaster-Hull: Allows pioneers to be redistributed onto cross country services, with NXEC bringing in more hull services & HT using electric sets e.g. 90s & Mark 3s to increase capacity.

any more suggestions?
 
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rail-britain

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Liverpool Lime Street-Scarborough: Would allow 185s on TPEs (who have been a victim of their own success) to move onto other routes with fewer demands, and bring in extended, electrified version of the same, preferably 6 car, with full cafe facilities
Just because a route is electrified does not guarantee that diesel units will be replaced by electric units
Although only part of the Glasgow/Edinburgh - Manchester route is not electrified, electrifying to Manchester Airport could in effect release many DMUs to other routes
However, Glasgow/Edinburgh - Birmingham is still operated by DEMUs, but hopefully this will be resolved in the longterm with replacement EMUs
 

Waverley125

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well I've never understood why Virgin don't just run the Birmingham-Glasgow service as an extension of a London-Bham service, so a 'Euston-Glasgow Central via Birmingham' train.
 

Techniquest

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That would require a massively higher number of trains than they currently have.

Some funky ideas in there but I sincerely doubt it's going to happen.
 

rail-britain

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well I've never understood why Virgin don't just run the Birmingham-Glasgow service as an extension of a London-Bham service, so a 'Euston-Glasgow Central via Birmingham' train

That would require a massively higher number of trains than they currently have

It wouldn't really, if the Class 221 units were replaced by Class 390s units (which is the long term plan)
Simply extend every second hourly London Euston - Birmingham to Glasgow

This is what many London - Birmingham - Carlisle services used to do, forming part of the regular London - Birmingham service
Destinations beyond Carlisle included Stranraer, Edinburgh, Stirling, and Inverness
 

me123

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should be Leeds-York Including the Harrogate Loop.

Agree; this is a vital diversionay route for the East Coast and electrification would be beneficial for that reason alone.

I'd also electrify the GWML and Birmingham-Bristol; it's about time you got wires down there. MML can probably wait a bit, but certainly after GWML in my opinion.

I'd also like to see the Trans-Pennine route electrified. The 185s are great, but I'm sure that TPE need longer trains, and I'm sure another company would snap up the 185s.

There's also the Scottish programme which is proposed. Basically, all of the Scottish Lowlands (with a few exceptions) will have wires by 2030 I believe.
 

O L Leigh

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I don't entirely buy your XC electrification proposals. The route miles are so high and the benefits are slight. For example, the Brum-Ely idea would only work for Brum-Stansted Airport services but leave the Liverpool-Norwich and Peterborough-Liv St services needing diesel units.

A better idea would be to wire up the Felixstowe branch for freight to remove the need for traction changeovers at Ipswich. Wiring up from Haughley Junction (GEML) to Peterborough might be an idea to allow electrically hauled freight to hit the ECML without having to go into London, but the available options for diversions on XC passenger services would almost completely preclude electrically operated services.

I think the push should really be for electrically hauled freight services and extensions to existing schemes. It strikes me that the MML and GWML are prime candidates for further electrification, as is the Felixstowe branch (even if only for freight). The Hull branch also seems like a good option.

However, what I'd really like to see is another metropolitan rail area getting wired in the same way that large parts of Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow were during the 1960's in order to provide an integrated electrified suburban network to tie-in with the electrified mainline services. This is something that I believe got a little lost in the 1980's electrification schemes like the ECML where just a single route was wired up for the use of a comparatively small number of trains. I think that the most obvious area at the moment is the West Yorkshire PTE area. If the MML was ever wired as far as Sheffield I would tentatively include the South Yorks PTE area too. This may or may not necessarily result in an electrified Transpennine network (e.g. Manchester to Hull), but it should certainly allow Northern to operate an increasing number of electric services over their current network.

Could it be that Pacers are not replaced by new DMU's but a new build of 3 car EMU...?

O L Leigh
 

rail-britain

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What about electrifying between Leeds and Manchester?
As far as I am aware the north link between York and Leeds is electrified
This would then allow electric trains to run throughout, between :
Newcastle - York - Manchester
Newcastle - York - Manchester - Birmingham (allowing a further absorption of the remains of the Cross Country franchise)
 

Spaceflower

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Yes, I agree with O. L. Electrifying many suburban routes would provide a far better service and would be more effective in terms of both reducing CO2 emissions and getting more value for money per route mile. Many suburban services (non electrified) suffer from poor frequency, poor journeys times and a general lack of investment, with the result that some are underused and the ones that are well used, are falling well short of their potential.
EMU's are well suited to suburban routes, being quieter, cleaner and have faster acceleration, which is important when many short stops are the norm.

But then all of these benefits could be provided by trams, which aren't tied down to existing rail infrastructure.............?
 

gordonthemoron

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Grantham-Nottingham: FCC trains currently terminate at Peterborough due to NXEC not wanting competition northwards from here. However, The MML timing from Nottingham-London is 2h20, compared to a potential timing via the ECML of less than 2 hours. Filling in the gap between Grantham & Nottingham would allow FCC to serve Nottingham & provide Grantham with a much better service to London.

MML/EMT Nottingham to London varies between 1h45 & 2h05 (except for the 23:15 service
 

laseandre

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It wouldn't really, if the Class 221 units were replaced by Class 390s units (which is the long term plan)...

I thought XC hired 390s from Virgin for their Glasgow Central to Birmingham International services already??
 

1D53

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What about electrifying between Leeds and Manchester?
As far as I am aware the north link between York and Leeds is electrified
This would then allow electric trains to run throughout, between :
Newcastle - York - Manchester
Newcastle - York - Manchester - Birmingham (allowing a further absorption of the remains of the Cross Country franchise)

Leeds to York isn't electrified, the wires stop at Neville Hill and don't start again until Colton Junction. You would have height problems in Standege Tunnel too.

 

Bayum

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Leeds-York falls under the umbrella suggestion of Liverpool-Scarborough. Route is Lime St-Widnes-Warr. Central-Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-York-Scarborough.

Not to be harsh... But I think that most people on here know the basic TPE routes...

And anyways, I thought there were already *plans* for Leeds - York to be electrified?? Im sure I read something somewhere about it... Probably dreamt it though!!!
 

Spaceflower

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The electric horseshoe. Wasn't it supposed to tie in with a new parkway station east of Leeds in the 'golden triangle' to try an tempt the 'two jags' out their cars and off the motorway?

I read about it in Rail I think.
 

Phoenix

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Cross Country Lines

Ely-Birmingham: Would connect all 4 northbound main lines in england, as well as linking Felixstowe-WCML under wires. Would also encourage a better service on the Peterborough-Birmingham lines, allowing class 357 electrostars to be brought in, doubling train lengths & reducing journey times. Further diversionary route off ECML, and allow special trains to Stamford during the summer.

any more suggestions?

This to seems to be the best suggestion mainly because of the line between Felixstowe to the North part of the WCML as this I assume would reduce the times on electrically hauled freightliner freight.
Also I have heard rumors that as of 2012 freight will have a very hard time being pathed through the capital for obvious reasons.
The only flaw being somewhere on the line the is actually a tunnel to small for electrification to be passed through.#

But combine this with electrification between Petebrough and Ely then well we eliminate the need for an electrically hauled service having to hop to down to London to switch between the WCML,ECML and the GEML which I assume will easily pay the bills for the job.
 

Waverley125

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ep, exactly. Also, thinking about it, it could mean that the Pboro-London Liverpool St service is merged into the XC network, or cut back to, say, Ipswich to allow complete through running into East Anglia from the West Midlands.

Waverley-Glasgow Queen Street is already planned, both via Falkirk and Bathgate.

Edinburgh-Aberdeen is impossible until a new Forth Rail bridge is built, or unless trains are diverted via Perth.

Castleford line would be a good one, especially if the old power station line & new curve were used to link it back into Pontefract.
 

43106

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Before embarking on big electrification projects, I'd like to see 'links' put in between existing electric lines. Leeds - York has had a couple of mentions, but what about Manchester Piccadilly - Bolton - Preston? While they're at it, they can rebuild Euxton Junction and get rid of that accursed single line!
Low bridges in Nottingham (or elsewhere) don't necessarily preclude installing OHLE. They had the same problem in the Edinburgh area when the Carstairs - Edinburgh was fitted with leccy leads in 1989. They stripped the track and track-bed, then scraped away about 18 inches (or more) of the ground BENEATH the bed, then put the bed and track back. It worked!
 
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Phoenix

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I gotta say the OHLE south of chelmsford as vintage and charming as it is really needs replacing seen as though it is converted DC OHLE.
 

Aureol

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I'm not too keen on the idea of electrifying Manchester Airport to free up 185s, either. Mainly because one of the routes into the Airport is the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport route, which passes through Sheffield and over the Hope Valley Line to Stockport, and they can electrify the Hope Valley over my dead body! :?
Besides, wouldn't Totley Tunnel be too low for OHLE anyway?
 

rmt

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I'm not too keen on the idea of electrifying Manchester Airport to free up 185s, either. Mainly because one of the routes into the Airport is the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport route, which passes through Sheffield and over the Hope Valley Line to Stockport, and they can electrify the Hope Valley over my dead body! :?
Besides, wouldn't Totley Tunnel be too low for OHLE anyway?

You know the solution to electrifying the Hope Valley don't you.. ;)
 

jopsuk

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Um, Ely-Birmingham wouldn't be enough, it would need to be either Norwich-Ely-Birmingham via the Breckland Line (with a suitable chord/new junction at Norwich- but at least the line is double tracked) or Ipswich-Ely-Birmingham. Ideally, there would also be a new junction/chord onto the East Suffolk line. Otherwise you're back to the freight going via London and haven't really solved anything.
 

xc170

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Its never going to happen, In every edition of rail magazine there is always a letter suggesting a new line for electrification. Think about it if all the said electrification did happen there would be a severe shortage of EMU's and too many DMU's and the leasing companies of the DMU's arnt going to be to happy are they they have hundreds of DMU's with nothing to do with them.:roll::roll::roll:
 

DaveNewcastle

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Low bridges in Nottingham (or elsewhere) don't necessarily preclude installing OHLE. They had the same problem in the Edinburgh area when the Carstairs - Edinburgh was fitted with leccy leads in 1989. They stripped the track and track-bed, then scraped away about 18 inches (or more) of the ground BENEATH the bed, then put the bed and track back. It worked!

Yep, that could be a viable solution to many tight spaces - but it hasn't ALWAYS worked. That's exactly what workers were doing in the Penmanshiel tunnel (ECML) when it collapsed on them! They wanted to increase the gauge and as the curvature of the tunnel wall gave more width a little lower down, they had a JCB in there to scrape the top few inches off the track bed. Then down it came.
 
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jopsuk

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Its never going to happen, In every edition of rail magazine there is always a letter suggesting a new line for electrification. Think about it if all the said electrification did happen there would be a severe shortage of EMU's and too many DMU's and the leasing companies of the DMU's arnt going to be to happy are they they have hundreds of DMU's with nothing to do with them.:roll::roll::roll:

That would only be the case if it was all done in one go though. With a planned out rolling programme, the electric stock should be built in time for the increased need. The older diesel stock from around the country would be retired, displaced where appropriate by newer stock from the now-electrified lines.
 

43106

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Yep, that could be a viable solution to many tight spaces - but it hasn't ALWAYS worked. That's exactly what workers were doing in the Penmanshiel tunnel (ECML) when it collapsed on them! They wanted to increase the gauge and as the curvature of the tunnel wall gave more width a little lower down, they had a JCB in there to scrape the top few inches off the track bed. Then down it came.

Even after all these years, I wondered why the tunnel collapsed. I was always under the impression that they were doing an inspection of the tunnel or carrying out routine maintenance in it. I didn't realise that they had actually dug the track up and were scraping up the track bed. Were they doing the work as a prelude to electrification, or was it just a case of making a bit more room?
 
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