Rollercoaster rides - Has ride quality declined?

[Lytham Local]

It could always be worse like this Malaxa ride in Romania (the railcar is over 80 years old)

Reminds me of the South Fylde line on a 142 before it became CWR - just not as bouncy!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Reminds me of the South Fylde line on a 142 before it became CWR - just not as bouncy!

I’ve definitely been on pacer runs waaaay rougher than that

 

[dk1]

I’ve definitely been on pacer runs waaaay rougher than that

Me too!! Journeys between Blackpool & Leeds and between Scarborough & Hull were white knuckle back in the day especially before OTMR when drivers made up time.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Me too!! Journeys between Blackpool & Leeds and between Scarborough & Hull were white knuckle back in the day especially before OTMR when drivers made up time.

Through Bramhope Tunnel on a 141 was always a bit hairy, the brakes never seemed to go in until we were coming out at the bottom end at probably a fair bit over the 60mph limit

 

[dk1]

Through Bramhope Tunnel on a 141 was always a bit hairy, the brakes never seemed to go in until we were coming out at the bottom end at probably a fair bit over the 60mph limit

Miss those days.

 

[Pnerick81]

I dreaded the Preston to ormskirk being on a 142 back in the day . Terrible jointed track . Looking through to the next carriage made you aware it bouncing all over the place . Has this been improved or still jointed?

 

[RJ]

The roughest rides I've had have been on a 387 on the Fen Line. It almost felt like we had hit a speed bump and it sort of hurt. It wasn't a sideways motion, but a bump in the direction of travel.

I would second that one, Ely to King's Lynn is a rough old ride, just as well there are always seats available on that stretch! I wouldn't recommend standing or walking through the train when at linespeed along there!

Remember travelling from Cardiff to Downham Market, twice, to buy buses and had the pleasure of Class 387s the entire way. They're fast trains alright but the ride quality at 100mph+ is nowhere near as good as purpose built intercity trains.

 

[FrontSideBus]

The Hitachis are the poorest rolling stock ive been on in Europe on Intercity routes when it comes to hard seats and ride quality. We should expect better. Mk3s should still be being made, albeit with powered doors.

Have you tried the 397? Makes the Hitachi's ride feel like a Rolls Royce!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Weirdly the inevitable rough riding on jointed track doesn’t bother me in the slightest, even on a pacer. it’s par for the course, anticipated and the motion is usually fairly regular, every 60ft and (mostly) up and down.

The rough riding I find alarming is when you’re at speed on smooth welded-rail and suddenly there’s an almighty lurch or bump, followed by (often prolonged) waggling. Or worse still when the ride suddenly deteriorates for no apparent reason at all, if the vehicle suspension isn’t stiff enough to maintain natural stability. (Hitachi & CAF I’m very much looking at you!)

If you really want to experience a hairy ride, travel on RENFE’s Talgo ‘Avril’ high speed trains - articulated single-axle suspension with grossly inadequate damping, 3+2 seating in standard class and hard seats. Combining the ride characteristics of a Pacer and IET at 220mph!

 

[FrontSideBus]

I actually used to enjoy the bouncing nature of the old Pacers tbh... when my daily commute into Liverpool turned up and it was a 142 coupled to a 15*, I'd chose the 142 for the pure comedy value.
If I close my eyes I can still hear the throaty roar from the Cummins and the mega squealing as we round the curve at Edge Hill!

 

[dk1]

Have you tried the 397? Makes the Hitachi's ride feel like a Rolls Royce!

See I used a 397 from Glasgow-Carlisle recently and I was impressed. Does it depend where in the coach you sit as I was nearer the centre.

 

[sh24]

See I used a 397 from Glasgow-Carlisle recently and I was impressed. Does it depend where in the coach you sit as I was nearer the centre.

On good track the 397's are fine, but when it's rough they really magnify the defects.

 

[FrontSideBus]

See I used a 397 from Glasgow-Carlisle recently and I was impressed. Does it depend where in the coach you sit as I was nearer the centre.

Really because I thought they were terrible, with every tiny bump and vibration seemingly amplified and transmitted right into you. Also if you are over the bogies, you can hear and feel it rattling around under you as if something is broken! My head was being thrown about at some stages like on a very bumpy road in a car!

 

[dk1]

Really because I thought they were terrible, with every tiny bump and vibration seemingly amplified and transmitted right into you. Also if you are over the bogies, you can hear and feel it rattling around under you as if something is broken! My head was being thrown about at some stages like on a very bumpy road in a car!

I’m in the North West in a couple of weeks so will try to sample them again. On that last trip from Scotland i honestly was impressed with the ride quality as well as the onboard ambiance.

 

[lewisf]

Took a trip to Germany a couple of months ago and was shocked at how smooth their track was compared to ours. It’s rock solid. And this was on several lines around Frankfurt and Wiesbaden.

If they can manage it why can’t we?

The quality of service certainly didn’t match however.

I’ve noticed other countries on the continent such as France, Italy and Spain also have far better track than we do.

 

[nlogax]

I personally find both the ECML and WCML to be pretty rough going unless sitting right in the middle of a carriage. Even the GWML has its problems - possibly an Hitachi issue?

Most of my experiences on dedicated high speed and on mixed-traffic lines across France, Germany, Italy and Spain have been silky smooth. Only Portugal's left a bit to be desired and that was many years ago. Is there a combination of line and stock somewhere in the UK that provides excellent ride quality other than, say, HS1?

 

[RailWonderer]

Most of my experiences on dedicated high speed and on mixed-traffic lines across France, Germany, Italy and Spain have been silky smooth. Only Portugal's left a bit to be desired and that was many years ago. Is there a combination of line and stock somewhere in the UK that provides excellent ride quality other than, say, HS1?

Pendolinos, Voyagers, 158s and 170s ride solidly on most track I've been on them.

See I used a 397 from Glasgow-Carlisle recently and I was impressed. Does it depend where in the coach you sit as I was nearer the centre.

I'd agree, I did the Carlisle - Glasgow stretch on them as well, no complaints at all, through you could feel the ride was harder than a Pendolino but only marginally. The seats are caving in though like the GWR IETs which isn't good, besides that they match the 185's refurbished ambience but still don't beat the 185 in comfort despite their higher speed.

 

[Pnerick81]

In the mid 90s we did a rail journey from Preston to Prague in the Czech republic. Parents didn’t have loads of money so benefited from using our staff travel passes for some of the journey .

Our journey was from
Preston - euston
London terminus ( can’t remember which one , perhaps Charing Cross. ) - Dover priory .
Calais - Paris nord
Paris est - Munich ( sleeper train)
Munich - Prague

All the trains and travelling was great until we reached furth- in - wald on the German/ Czech border .

The quality of track was really apparent when we travelled in the Czech Republic . Joint track all the way to Prague . Was a very rough ride all the way .

 

[dk1]

I'd agree, I did the Carlisle - Glasgow stretch on them as well, no complaints at all, through you could feel the ride was harder than a Pendolino but only marginally. The seats are caving in though like the GWR IETs which isn't good, besides that they match the 185's refurbished ambience but still don't beat the 185 in comfort despite their higher speed.

The only issue was whether we’d get a seat such was the queue across the concourse at Central for the 09:09 to Manchester Airport. The Avanti staff commented that that service is very popular every day. Thankfully most had reservations and those seats not allocated were mostly free.

 

[nlogax]

Pendolinos, Voyagers, 158s and 170s ride solidly on most track I've been on them.

Certainly not my experience on Pendos. If sat over the bogies they're as rough as anything.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Took a trip to Germany a couple of months ago and was shocked at how smooth their track was compared to ours. It’s rock solid. And this was on several lines around Frankfurt and Wiesbaden.

If they can manage it why can’t we?

The quality of service certainly didn’t match however.

I’ve noticed other countries on the continent such as France, Italy and Spain also have far better track than we do.

Continental rolling stock is generally a lot heavier than U.K. rolling stock and the swept-envelope of their loading gauge is much larger so suspension can be softer which means you’re less likely to feel bumps. Here in the U.K. we combine a requirement for lighter axle loads with increasingly long vehicles which means there is very little tolerance for the suspension to absorb shocks. There is a reason why pre-IET the longest vehicles were generally 23m; it gives some room for the vehicle to gently bounce and roll. Just think how a (good / ex-works) Mk3 would ride at speed, it was like being on a ship in a swell, would roll with the waves rather than fighting them, but still remain within the loading gauge envelope.

When DfT specified 26m for IET they were effectively spending this margin on cramming a few more seats in and a very tight suspension is needed to keep the vehicle within the same envelope. Just another example of the client not understanding the implication of what they were specifying.

(Of course combining this with poor design / manufacturing quality of the trains themselves just ends up with the worst of all worlds, at great cost when it comes to Hitachi!)

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m on Pendolinos on average 2-3 times a week, and the only time I am aware of rough riding is if there is a specific problem with the unit. Otherwise it is good. Certainly better than the TGV I had up LGV SE a few weeks ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I dreaded the Preston to ormskirk being on a 142 back in the day . Terrible jointed track . Looking through to the next carriage made you aware it bouncing all over the place . Has this been improved or still jointed?

Some is welded now though I forget which bits.

 

[Sleepy]

Ely - Brandon is shocking at the moment.

 

[dk1]

Ely - Brandon is shocking at the moment.

It’s like that most years at this time.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I’m on Pendolinos on average 2-3 times a week, and the only time I am aware of rough riding is if there is a specific problem with the unit. Otherwise it is good. Certainly better than the TGV I had up LGV SE a few weeks ago.

I’m surprised that TGV gave you a rough ride; I thought articulated vehicles were very stable? I did an elderly Sud-Est set on a Lille-Bordeaux run not long before they retired and the ride was still noticeably better than the best I’ve had with a (non-articulated) E320 set.

 

[saismee]

Maybe I'll give Ely to Norwich a go on both some time.

Definitely better in a 158 compared to a 170. The 170 was all over the place, while both 158s I used were much smoother (refurbished and non-reburbished). Didn't use a FLIRT but it all depends on the performance of GN and whether I meet my connection at Ely!

379 from King's Lynn to Ely is pretty rough at the moment as expected, though it really lives up to the "rollercoaster ride" name with what feel like air-time hills built into the track!!!

 

[AM9]

Definitely better in a 158 compared to a 170. The 170 was all over the place, while both 158s I used were much smoother (refurbished and non-reburbished). Didn't use a FLIRT but it all depends on the performance of GN and whether I meet my connection at Ely!

379 from King's Lynn to Ely is pretty rough at the moment as expected, though it really lives up to the "rollercoaster ride" name with what feel like air-time hills built into the track!!!

Do the Turbostars have the same suspension arrangement (with all the lateral control shortfalls of the Electrostars)?

 

[NCT]

Continental rolling stock is generally a lot heavier than U.K. rolling stock and the swept-envelope of their loading gauge is much larger so suspension can be softer which means you’re less likely to feel bumps. Here in the U.K. we combine a requirement for lighter axle loads with increasingly long vehicles which means there is very little tolerance for the suspension to absorb shocks. There is a reason why pre-IET the longest vehicles were generally 23m; it gives some room for the vehicle to gently bounce and roll. Just think how a (good / ex-works) Mk3 would ride at speed, it was like being on a ship in a swell, would roll with the waves rather than fighting them, but still remain within the loading gauge envelope.

When DfT specified 26m for IET they were effectively spending this margin on cramming a few more seats in and a very tight suspension is needed to keep the vehicle within the same envelope. Just another example of the client not understanding the implication of what they were specifying.

(Of course combining this with poor design / manufacturing quality of the trains themselves just ends up with the worst of all worlds, at great cost when it comes to Hitachi!)

Suspension / kinematic envelopes aside, do we know how railway embankments in Germany (and other continental European countries) compare to ours? Our embankments are typically just piled up earth before the Victorians understood 'embankment engineering' - did the continental railway companies learn lessons from us?

 

[tfw756rider]

Me too!! Journeys between Blackpool & Leeds and between Scarborough & Hull were white knuckle back in the day especially before OTMR when drivers made up time.

What does OTMR stand for?