Rochester to Rotherhithe

[MedwayValiant]

A bit of an odd one, but I did this journey today. There are probably half a dozen valid routings, and the NRE website routed me a different way back than out.

Out, I changed at Gravesend and Peckham Rye, and that is perhaps the "obvious" way to make this journey. Back, the NRE website told me to change at Denmark Hill and Bromley South, and it was a more pleasant journey that way - but there's an oddity.

I didn't actually realise this until I was on the train towards Bromley, but that route stops at Peckham Rye twice and so the first change ought really to be there rather than Denmark Hill. Two questions:

1. I know that you're always allowed to use a routing if it's the one given to you by NRE, but that apart is the doubleback actually a permitted route?

2. Why does NRE suggest a route with an unnecessary doubleback rather than specifying a change at Peckham Rye? Had I changed at Peckham Rye I'd have got exactly the same train towards Bromley, and I'd have had time for a leisurely stroll from one side of the station to the other rather than a bit of a dash at Denmark Hill.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Interesting, and yes I can replicate this on the NRE journey planner for weekday journeys leaving Rotherhithe at 03 and 33 past the hour. However looking at both a Worldline WebTIS site (GWR) and on FastJP, the change is instead shown at Peckham Rye.

The only thing that comes to mind is the fact that the stairs to access platform 4 (for eastbound SE and Thameslink trains) at Peckham Rye are pretty narrow and something of a bottleneck when busy - see photo 1, photo 2 - and so perhaps the NRE planner has been programmed to prefer a change at Denmark Hill if that is feasible (DH nowadays having two overbridges between both platforms and exit).

 

[yorkie]

What itinerary were you given?

 

[MedwayValiant]

Outbound, change at Peckham Rye. It would have been equally possible to double back via Denmark Hill and get to Rotherhithe at the same time, but that is not the itinerary that NRE gave me. Back, change at Denmark Hill, stopping at Peckham Rye twice.

I think I can answer my own question about whether the doubleback is a permitted route. The official distance from Peckham Rye to Denmark Hill is 71 chains and the fares are the same, so the doubleback is permitted under the 3 mile rule.

Joe makes a fair point about the narrow stairs at Peckham Rye, and the station layout is a bit confusing if you're not familiar with it, but it's still a bit puzzling that NRE wants me to double back via Denmark Hill on the return but not the outbound!

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Denmark Hill also has lifts to all platforms, whereas Peckham Rye is quite hard for the mobility impaired so this may be a further factor. But it sounds too sophisticated to have been programmed into Journey Planners...!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Denmark Hill also has lifts to all platforms, whereas Peckham Rye is quite hard for the mobility impaired so this may be a further factor. But it sounds too sophisticated to have been programmed into Journey Planners...!

If that was the logic, then you'd expect it to be applied in both directions - and it isn't.

I don't know how sophisticated the NRE journey planner can be, but the TfL journey planner is certainly capable of being programmed to direct people towards (or away from) certain interchange points.

 

[yorkie]

I did a search using NRE for next Saturday and it said there were no journeys available. Websites such as NRE really struggle with journeys such as this. But I don't know why it's doing what you describe; only SilverRail can answer that.

If you book a ticket online in conjunction with an itinerary and you travel in accordance with that itinerary then of course your ticket is contractually valid.

Trainsplit will offer a split at Peckham Rye for a total of £21.02 return, which is cheaper than the through fare, if you are happy to be restricted to routes that avoid London Terminals (the through fare is priced to assume travel via London)

 

[kieron]

It's £19.30 return if you use Oyster/contactless from Peckham Rye (or Denmark Hill). Oyster costs more if you go via central London, so don't do that. An off peak day return from Rochester to Zone U2* London is cheaper again, but I don't think Rotherhithe is on a part of the Overground network where this is valid.

As to the questions posed:

1. The RDG site says Surrey Quays and Highbury are valid routeing point for Rotherhithe, and Rochester is part of Chatham Group.

The only valid Chatham-Surrey Quays map combination is "LONDON", which means a valid Chatham-London route followed by a London-Surrey Quays one. The 10:52 from Rochester to London Victoria follows a valid route, as it's a through train. It calls at Denmark Hill and passes through Peckham Rye non-stop. The shortest route from London Victoria to Surrey Quays goes via Denmark Hill, so that's also valid.

An off peak day return from Rochester to Rotherhithe has restriction C4, and permits break of journey, so you can miss out the Denmark Hill-London Victoria-Denmark Hill section of the route.

So yes, what you did probably was valid, although I'm surprised that NRE said as much.

2. My understanding is that there's a list of stations to say "if you can either change at X or at Y without extending the journey time, change at X". That may be why it preferred you to change at Denmark Hill.

This sort of thing can sometimes lead to a web site offering more expensive tickets than you really need, but this isn't a problem for the train company.