ROC strategy and build progress

[rugbymidland]

This article in Rail Professional Magazine makes interesting reading re ROC strategy and how it is progressing:

http://www.railpro.co.uk/magazine/?idArticles=2123

Network Rail is in the process of building 12 ROC’s that will eventually control the entire UK rail network. Simon Whitehorn, head of National Operating Strategy, spoke to Dave Songer about progress made so far

How is it all going?

It is going very well. My role as head of operations and strategy is about bringing together all the various elements, which includes the migration to all 12 ROC’s (regional operating centres).


Although I am not responsible for the design and build of those centres, I am concerned with getting them built and we have a migration plan over the next few years to gradually move all our signalling, external signal locations and workstations into them, making sure that at a national level they are consistent in their specification.


When the traffic management technology is then introduced, it will enable the operators of the future to improve the way that we deliver our day-to-day operational railway, hopefully driving performance benefits as a result. Also, part of the operating strategy is our TMS programme; the next generation of train signalling control that makes sure that all three elements of that – plus a number of other small projects and programmes – are all integrated to develop that kind of operational vision....

 

[Ironside]

This article in Rail Professional Magazine makes interesting reading re ROC strategy and how it is progressing:

http://www.railpro.co.uk/magazine/?idArticles=2123

An interesting and positive article, thanks for the link. I found it interesting that the ROC's are being made blast proof. From a railway perspective it's interesting that they are trying to design a system that will get trains moving quicker after a problem has occurred.

 

[swt_passenger]

An interesting and positive article, thanks for the link. I found it interesting that the ROC's are being made blast proof. From a railway perspective it's interesting that they are trying to design a system that will get trains moving quicker after a problem has occurred.

I believe from a read of the planning application for Three Bridges ROC that the building has all sorts of internal fireproof zones as well, so that when someone burns the toast in the mess room during a break they won't be stopping the job and evacuating to the car park either...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Let's hope they really have sorted out the MCB-OD problems on Norwich-Ely and Crewe-Shrewsbury.
This is a key part of the roll-out of modular signalling and transfer to the ROCs.

 

[LowLevel]

Don't forget the Joint line between Peterborough and Gainsborough - that's rubbish too!

 

[carriageline]

As I posted elsewhere, apparently they have! By removing the LIDAR capability and that has solved the problem. I can't remember where I read it so take it with a pinch of salt!


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[Class377/5]

I believe from a read of the planning application for Three Bridges ROC that the building has all sorts of internal fireproof zones as well, so that when someone burns the toast in the mess room during a break they won't be stopping the job and evacuating to the car park either...

The UPS has survived quite a few local power failures.

 

[swt_passenger]

The UPS has survived quite a few local power failures.

You'd hope so. The argument against these things seems to be theoretical, based on more on what has happened to various existing PSBs ASCs, IECCs etc.

I reckon people must have enough experience now to design a few issues out of the ROCs from the beginning...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Knowing this country they'll quiet successfully & intentionally build some issues into them on purpose, so they can screw some extra cash out of the system.

 

[Ironside]

You'd hope so. The argument against these things seems to be theoretical, based on more on what has happened to various existing PSBs ASCs, IECCs etc.

I reckon people must have enough experience now to design a few issues out of the ROCs from the beginning...

Standing of the shoulders of giants, very encouraging.

 

[Olaf]

There was also an article in Rail Engineer focusing on technical aspects:

National Rail Strategy Unveiled:
http://www.therailengineer.com/category/signalling-and-telecoms/

• Article date: 2014-10-06:
• Confirms the list of 12 ROCs,
• Driven by the National Operating Strategy (NOS),
• The ROC building has been designed for resilience with blast-proofing,
• Multiple power supplies and 24-hour security,
• Consideration is being given to hand-over for continuity in the event of a high-impact event "It is not technically difficult, given IP-based links to hook up controls to another building. However, one of the more difficult issues is ensuring suitably qualified staff are available to take over at an alternative location",
• Control of the West Midlands is being switched from the existing PSBs to Saltley as an interim step, before Saltley is re-controlled from Rugby. However it will remain as a 'lights-out' facility hosting the interlockings.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This article goes into some detail about the remote management technology used to de-couple the interlockings from the control and TM functions and goes part way to answer some the questions asked on the forums:

RIF to ROC in Scotland:
http://www.therailengineer.com/2014/03/26/rif-roc-scotland/

• 2014-03-26:
• NOS will require existing signalling centres using SSI (solid state interlocking) technology to be ‘re-controlled’.
• The interlockings will remain in place and become remotely controlled from the new ROC; in the case of Edinburgh this has been achieved using the IECC Scalable product from DeltaRail which makes use of their remote interface (RIF) technology.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Lastly, I found this paper which describes a key component in the DeltaRail RIF and gives a good indication the nuts and bolts of the technology being deployed, and the issues the technology addresses:

MESSAGE BROKER TECHNOLOGY FOR FLEXIBLE SIGNALLING CONTROL
http://www.irse.org/knowledge/publi...echnology for flexible signalling control.pdf

 

[Class377/5]

You'd hope so. The argument against these things seems to be theoretical, based on more on what has happened to various existing PSBs ASCs, IECCs etc.

I reckon people must have enough experience now to design a few issues out of the ROCs from the beginning...

Considering how well TBROC has coped compared to Three Bridges Box the argument against ROCs completely fails in the real world.

 

[LAX54]

It does ! ? :-?

 

[carriageline]

To be fair, a lot has been learnt from TBROC, mainly the poor design of the ops floor!


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[Olaf]

It appears that NR is now going to accelerate the implementation of Digital Rail program:
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...lerate-digital-enablement-of-britains-railway

The only concern is that they are not able to bring forward into CP5.

 

[carriageline]

"Completed in 15 years" brilliant! That won't happen


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[LAX54]

"Completed in 15 years" brilliant! That won't happen


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Its no good going on about a digital railway and ETRMS etc if the track and infrastructure is no good, also needs longer franchises on the TOC's and FOC's otherwise they will not sign up to pay millions to 'join the club' as for TMS will it really be any better than human interaction?

 

[Yabbadabba]

TMS is coming a lot sooner than some people realise and that's including my colleagues in the signalling grade and it also comes in three varieties depending on the location that it's going in to and we are not just talking about ROCs here.

 

[Class377/5]

Its no good going on about a digital railway and ETRMS etc if the track and infrastructure is no good, also needs longer franchises on the TOC's and FOC's otherwise they will not sign up to pay millions to 'join the club' as for TMS will it really be any better than human interaction?

If you think TMS replaces human interaction your very mistaken. It improves it.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

If you think TMS replaces human interaction your very mistaken. It improves it.

Really? Today's signallers are scared of their own shadows in case they regulate a service correctly avoid causing loads of delays & yet still get a code O on their record. :roll:

As for ROC's I can't wait for weather to start playing games with one. I mean a severe electrical storm at say Didcot or Basingstoke has the potential to shutdown the entire sector that it controls.

Just think a severe electrical storm in Oxon, in the future could potentially stop a every train service from Paddington to sunny Penzance! And for those who say it'll never happen, it may statistically seem very unlikely, but you can almost guarantee that the weather will break those odds.

Obviously, no one in NR has ever heard the adage of not putting all of your eggs in one basket.

 

[carriageline]

TMS is coming a lot sooner than some people realise and that's including my colleagues in the signalling grade and it also comes in three varieties depending on the location that it's going in to and we are not just talking about ROCs here.

To be honest, seeing as there has been a massive lack of communication about it, you can't be surprised that people don't have a clue. I am aware about TM-lite of whatever they are called it (I believe Rugby SCC will be having it on their workstations?) but that's only through my own research into the matter. I believe the first TM installations
is going into Wales ROC and Romford next year.

My "no chance" was aimed at every box being closed in the next 15 years. Even their internal list says the opposite!


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[ainsworth74]

Obviously, no one in NR has ever heard the adage of not putting all of your eggs in one basket.

Neither has most of the signalling fraternity then! Large regional control centers are not uncommon elsewhere in the world and they seem to survive...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Neither has most of the signalling fraternity then! Large regional control centers are not uncommon elsewhere in the world and they seem to survive...

But rest of the world is quite happy to invest in the best technology, unlike here where they buy the cheapest cr4p going, expecting it to perform miracles and last forever and a day without breaking down.

All this lot think about is money, not paying that little extra for reliability. :roll:

 

[Bald Rick]

Just think a severe electrical storm in Oxon, in the future could potentially stop a every train service from Paddington to sunny Penzance! And for those who say it'll never happen, it may statistically seem very unlikely, but you can almost guarantee that the weather will break those odds.

But severe lighting storms in the Clapham Junction, Wimbledon, Crawley, Liverpool Street and Wembley areas have yet to knock out signalling in the wide areas the signalling centres at these locations control. For example. There is some very good lightning protection!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All this lot think about is money, not paying that little extra for reliability. :roll:

I really would like you to come down and talk to the chaps who are responsible for this stuff so you can see what they have built in...

 

[Yabbadabba]

To be honest, seeing as there has been a massive lack of communication about it, you can't be surprised that people don't have a clue. I am aware about TM-lite of whatever they are called it (I believe Rugby SCC will be having it on their workstations?) but that's only through my own research into the matter. I believe the first TM installations
is going into Wales ROC and Romford next year.

My "no chance" was aimed at every box being closed in the next 15 years. Even their internal list says the opposite!


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We have to get away from the thoughts that TMS is only a system exclusively for the ROCs, in fact it should be going into every Signalbox/centre that has crucial regulating points and in my part of the world that's going to be very rapidly indeed, even though unless the timeline slips again we are not due to migrate until CP6-2019/2024. TMS-lite is a phrase that we need to move away from because as I said TMS now comes in three varieties depending on location it's going to fitted into.

 

[carriageline]

But if the higher echelons don't give us information, how do we know if Its for a ROC? A lot of signallers still think it's a signalling system and we won't be touching it, not that it's an aid and a decision making tool. There is info on connect but it's quite well hidden (our management have been brilliant and gave us lots of information on it though to be wit)

How will they fit TM to a panel? Unless it's used in a train graph style screen.


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[HarleyDavidson]

But severe lighting storms in the Clapham Junction, Wimbledon, Crawley, Liverpool Street and Wembley areas have yet to knock out signalling in the wide areas the signalling centres at these locations control. For example. There is some very good lightning protection!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I really would like you to come down and talk to the chaps who are responsible for this stuff so you can see what they have built in...

The electrical storms we've had of recent are nothing compared to what they used to be, so a comparison isn't really available.

The last really big one was years (10+) when three storm systems merged to make a "super cell" and that went on for hours & hours. I can't remember a decent storm &/or it lasting for a reasonably long time (>2 hrs) in recent years.

 

[Yabbadabba]

But if the higher echelons don't give us information, how do we know if Its for a ROC? A lot of signallers still think it's a signalling system and we won't be touching it, not that it's an aid and a decision making tool. There is info on connect but it's quite well hidden (our management have been brilliant and gave us lots of information on it though to be wit)

How will they fit TM to a panel? Unless it's used in a train graph style screen.


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How it fits onto a panel, will the responsibility of the TMS working groups that each route should be setting up with amongst others, signaller, SSMs and controllers sitting on it. I know of three such groups at the moment including mine. It's at an early stage but boy are they in a hurry! I suppose it's down to the timeline of each route for its introduction, but expect to see my signalling centre in their glossy promotion material in the not to distant future as they are bound to want to show it off.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

So what's the benefit of the TMS stuff then?

I can't see it allowing a signaller who's got the gonads to regulate the service off the top of his head to do so & avoid causing delays which will increase at an exponential rate, if they don't.

 

[Yabbadabba]

So what's the benefit of the TMS stuff then?

I can't see it allowing a signaller who's got the gonads to regulate the service off the top of his head to do so & avoid causing delays which will increase at an exponential rate, if they don't.

I'm not going to get involved with the politics of it, but as I find out the technical specs of it bit by bit I will share. Then let you make up your own opinions lol