Robin Hood Line Extension

[tbtc]

An interesting extension idea which has occurred to me today would be Nottingham-Mansfield-Worksop-reverse then to Doncaster by the current freight only route from Brancliffe east junction, with new stations at Anston and Maltby.

Doncaster south end bay platform 5 should easily be able to cope with an extra hourly service in addition to its current workings (the Lincoln-Doncaster EMT and some sheffield-donc terminators). Indeed, it would be theoretical to link at Doncaster with the EMT Doncaster-Finningley-Gainsborough Lea Road-Lincoln service.

Build stations at Anston, Maltby and Finningley - theoretically nothing else needed. Comments?

Maltby is a town with around 20,000 people, so a reasonable shout for a town to reconnect to the rail network, but this service to Worksop and Doncaster would be in the wrong direction, given that the natural market is eastwards to Rotherham, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

For example, the fact that there's no commercial bus service from Maltby to Worksop or Doncaster shows that there's not a huge demand.

Am sure that sheff'd victoria is salivating at the prospect of a circuitous Nottingham - Maltby - Doncaster - Lincoln service though!
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Lets just begin by doing something simple and costing millions of pounds less!
Better connections at Worksop so that it doesn't take nearly 2 hours to travel on what should be a quick local journey from Mansfield to Sheffield.
That would significantly increase passenger numbers on the section of the Robin Hood Line north of Mansfield. It's currently quicker and more convenient to use the very slow Number 53 bus between Mansfield and Sheffield.

Agreed. But a simple practical ideas don't get a lot of support on here - building an expensive new line is generally more popular!

The poor links from north Nottinghamshire to South Yorkshire really need improving. Would it help to extend the "other" Nottingham - Mansfield service to Worksop instead? Or would that mean a poorer connection in the other direction?

 

[ashworth]

The poor links from north Nottinghamshire to South Yorkshire really need improving. Would it help to extend the "other" Nottingham - Mansfield service to Worksop instead? Or would that mean a poorer connection in the other direction?

At present there is approx 40 minute wait when travelling from Mansfield to Sheffield and approx 20 minute wait in the other direction. Changing which service ran through from Nottingham to Worksop would just reverse the situation making a 40 minute wait and an almost 2 hour journey from Sheffield to Mansfield.

It can be done, as indeed it is every evening.
Train from Nottingham arrives in Worksop at 1907
Train from Sheffield to Lincoln arr/dep at 1913
Train from Lincoln to Sheffield arr/dep at 1916
Train to Nottingham departs from Worksop at 1923
This allows good connections to/from both Sheffield and Lincoln

However, to manage this hourly during the day it would need a complete time table redraft and it may cause problems with platform space and movements at Nottingham. Also without a line speed increase to cut journey times by at least 5 minutes in each direction between Nottingham and Worksop it would mean an extra unit because of longer layovers at both Worksop and Nottingham. However, I am convinced that much shortened journey times between Mansfield and other stations north of Mansfield to/from Sheffield would result in significant rises in passenger numbers north of Mansfield on the Robin Hood Line.

I am very aware that the Robin Hood Line timings is very much determined by movements in Nottingham station. EMT have never shown any interest in improving connections at Worksop for passengers travelling north from Mansfield. Perhaps they just want people to pay the higher fare and travel via Nottingham to reach northern destinations! The current arrangements does not just result in poor connections at Worksop because currently the Robin Hood Line trains depart Nottingham just before arrivals from London, Liverpool and Birmingham always meaning a wait for a conection in Nottingham for Mansfield of at least 20 minutes and even longer in the evenings.

 

[Mugby]

Havn't travelled on this line for quite a while but I remember that north of Mansfield Woodhouse there used to be a very slow section past an old quarry which had excavated very close to the line on the up side.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I'm sorry, I have to challenge this. Between 1984 and 1993, eleven railway stations in South Yorkshire opened (or indeed reopened), in order: Silkstone Common, Rotherham Central, Goldthorpe, Thurnscoe, Dodworth, Berry Brow, Swinton, Meadowhall, Kirk Sandall, Bentley and Adwick. Rotherham Central (from the above) and Barnsley Interchange have also undergone complete rebuilding projects, and the year after the end of this run, you also gained a fairly expansive 18 mile light rail network. Compare that to similarly populated Hampshire (SY has 1,344000 residents and Hants 1,322,000), which has had only 3 since in 47 years (Southampton Airport in 1966, Hedge End in 1990 and Chadlers Ford in 2003), all of which are within about 10 miles of each other. The Solent area also had a light rail scheme cancelled. Essex, larger than SY with 1,397,000 residents, has had only 5 new stations in 39 years, Basildon in 1974, Stansted Airport in 1991, Chafford Hundred in 1995, Braintree Freeport in 1999, and Southend Airport in 2011. Yep, South Yorkshire sure has done badly!

Fair point, I was trying to compair South Yorkshire with other PTE areas, I dont understand why places like Essex and Hampshire are not PTE areas that can attract more funds.

Am sure that sheff'd victoria is salivating at the prospect of a circuitous Nottingham - Maltby - Doncaster - Lincoln service though!

I would not go that far

However any improvement on any local lines have my support

 

[Kneedown]

Havn't travelled on this line for quite a while but I remember that north of Mansfield Woodhouse there used to be a very slow section past an old quarry which had excavated very close to the line on the up side.

That bit has been raised to 50mph for Sprinters.

 

[tbtc]

At present there is approx 40 minute wait when travelling from Mansfield to Sheffield and approx 20 minute wait in the other direction. Changing which service ran through from Nottingham to Worksop would just reverse the situation making a 40 minute wait and an almost 2 hour journey from Sheffield to Mansfield.

It can be done, as indeed it is every evening.
Train from Nottingham arrives in Worksop at 1907
Train from Sheffield to Lincoln arr/dep at 1913
Train from Lincoln to Sheffield arr/dep at 1916
Train to Nottingham departs from Worksop at 1923
This allows good connections to/from both Sheffield and Lincoln

However, to manage this hourly during the day it would need a complete time table redraft and it may cause problems with platform space and movements at Nottingham. Also without a line speed increase to cut journey times by at least 5 minutes in each direction between Nottingham and Worksop it would mean an extra unit because of longer layovers at both Worksop and Nottingham. However, I am convinced that much shortened journey times between Mansfield and other stations north of Mansfield to/from Sheffield would result in significant rises in passenger numbers north of Mansfield on the Robin Hood Line.

I am very aware that the Robin Hood Line timings is very much determined by movements in Nottingham station. EMT have never shown any interest in improving connections at Worksop for passengers travelling north from Mansfield. Perhaps they just want people to pay the higher fare and travel via Nottingham to reach northern destinations! The current arrangements does not just result in poor connections at Worksop because currently the Robin Hood Line trains depart Nottingham just before arrivals from London, Liverpool and Birmingham always meaning a wait for a conection in Nottingham for Mansfield of at least 20 minutes and even longer in the evenings.

You are right.

I've just had a look at the timings and it'd be fairly tight to extend the current Mansfield Woodhouse terminator to Worksop each hour at the cost of one additional DMU (which, lets face it, EMT don't have).

No scope for extra paths on the Sheffield line either (given the capacity problems at the northern end of Midland Station).

Shame.

 

[Mugby]

It is a shame because Mansfield to Sheffield is the obvious thing to do. I'm sure it would be extremely popular for northern connections, Meadowhall etc.

It would need to omit Worksop though, because if such a service went there and then reversed to Sheffield, it wouldn't be very attractive.

The problem is, Nottinghamshire CC wouldn't have anything to do with it because they would consider such a thing would take people away from Nottingham. Also, ashworth makes a good point, EMT are content to make people go via Nottingham and pay the higher fare.

With regard to the capacity problems at Sheffield, couldn't they put a bay platform between 6 and 8 at the northern end, there seems acres of space, or even at the north end of platform 1 adjacent to the road.
Still the problem of pathing in though.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

It is a shame because Mansfield to Sheffield is the obvious thing to do. I'm sure it would be extremely popular for northern connections, Meadowhall etc.

It would need to omit Worksop though, because if such a service went there and then reversed to Sheffield, it wouldn't be very attractive.

As ive put somewhere before, the section of line between Worksop and Sheffield Midland is crying out for an every 30 minute service in the daytime

Most of the Retford/Lincoln services have to reverse in/out of the platforms at Sheffield Midland as South Yorkshire PTE demand that the Lincoln line services have to connnect with Meadow " Hell "

 

[34D]

As ive put somewhere before, the section of line between Worksop and Sheffield Midland is crying out for an every 30 minute service in the daytime

This is true of a lot of lines in west and south Yorkshire though.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

This is true of a lot of lines in west and south Yorkshire though.

100% agree with you on that

Ive just got a letter from our friends at South Yorkshire PTE, they say again their is a demand for an every 30 minute Monday to Friday service between Sheffield Midland & Worksop between 7am-7pm, and they are still trying to get some sort of early Sunday service on the line but with little luck thanks to Network Rail ( Who closed the Lincoln line on a sunday until 1400 )

A replacement " Sunday" bus service from Sheffield - Worksop is a no go as Northern Rail do not have to provide this, SYPTE say that their is no demand but support the Sunday rail service coming back ? :roll:

 

[tbtc]

100% agree with you on that

Ive just got a letter from our friends at South Yorkshire PTE, they say again their is a demand for an every 30 minute Monday to Friday service between Sheffield Midland & Worksop between 7am-7pm, and they are still trying to get some sort of early Sunday service on the line but with little luck thanks to Network Rail ( Who closed the Lincoln line on a sunday until 1400 )

A replacement " Sunday" bus service from Sheffield - Worksop is a no go as Northern Rail do not have to provide this, SYPTE say that their is no demand but support the Sunday rail service coming back ? :roll:

Since you are the Forum's expert on all things Lincolnshire, do you know where the boundary on the Sheffield - Lincoln line is between signal boxes?

(i.e. if its Retford then you could run Sunday morning services from Sheffield to Retford until 14:00, and extend them through to Lincoln afterwards)

 

[lyndhurst25]

Maltby is a town with around 20,000 people, so a reasonable shout for a town to reconnect to the rail network, but this service to Worksop and Doncaster would be in the wrong direction, given that the natural market is eastwards to Rotherham, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

For example, the fact that there's no commercial bus service from Maltby to Worksop or Doncaster shows that there's not a huge demand.

There's the hourly number 18 bus Dinnington-Maltby-Doncaster and the half-hourly number 22 that goes Worksop-Tickhill-Doncaster.

The main problem with passenger services on the South Yorkshire Joint Line is that it was built to serve the collieries rather than the villages and doesn't really go anywhere near the centres of population. The old Maltby and Tickhill stations were nowhere near the villages that they served and the passenger service was a total failure, only lasting from 1910 to 1929. Also I believe that the speed limits on the SYJt are pitifully slow (25-35 mph), so the bus would easily beat the train.

 

[Tomnick]

Since you are the Forum's expert on all things Lincolnshire, do you know where the boundary on the Sheffield - Lincoln line is between signal boxes?

(i.e. if its Retford then you could run Sunday morning services from Sheffield to Retford until 14:00, and extend them through to Lincoln afterwards)

I shall let sheff'd victoria lay claim to the title of expert if so desired, but I can answer your question in the meantime. To run a service to Retford, you'd need Woodburn Jn, Woodhouse Jn, Kiveton Park, Worksop and Thrumpton boxes open. Beyond that, you'd need Gainsboro' Trent Jn, Stow Park, Saxilby and Lincoln SCC (which I think is open continuously, or at least earlier on Sunday anyway). None of them (apart from Lincoln) open much before 1400 currently (West Burton not until 1800).

 

[tbtc]

Maltby is a town with around 20,000 people, so a reasonable shout for a town to reconnect to the rail network, but this service to Worksop and Doncaster would be in the wrong direction, given that the natural market is eastwards to Rotherham, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

For example, the fact that there's no commercial bus service from Maltby to Worksop or Doncaster shows that there's not a huge demand

There's the hourly number 18 bus Dinnington-Maltby-Doncaster and the half-hourly number 22 that goes Worksop-Tickhill-Doncaster

AIUI the 18 is tendered (i.e. there's no viable market for a commercial bus service, so I doubt you'd come anywhere near any viable railway service).

Rotherham's main market would be a service eastwards (not to WOrksop or Doncaster)

 

[34D]

The main problem with passenger services on the South Yorkshire Joint Line is that it was built to serve the collieries rather than the villages and doesn't really go anywhere near the centres of population. The old Maltby and Tickhill stations were nowhere near the villages that they served and the passenger service was a total failure, only lasting from 1910 to 1929. Also I believe that the speed limits on the SYJt are pitifully slow (25-35 mph), so the bus would easily beat the train.

Fair comment. At least any new-build houses on brownfield land will be near the station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Different line. That's the old Ambergate, Nottingham, Boston and Eastern Junction Railway which is still in use (Nottingham to Grantham)

Was that the the company that subsequently became the Nottingham and Grantham Railway and Canal Company and in 1861, was leased to the Great Northern Railway ?

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Since you are the Forum's expert on all things Lincolnshire, do you know where the boundary on the Sheffield - Lincoln line is between signal boxes?

(i.e. if its Retford then you could run Sunday morning services from Sheffield to Retford until 14:00, and extend them through to Lincoln afterwards)

I shall let sheff'd victoria lay claim to the title of expert if so desired, but I can answer your question in the meantime. To run a service to Retford, you'd need Woodburn Jn, Woodhouse Jn, Kiveton Park, Worksop and Thrumpton boxes open. Beyond that, you'd need Gainsboro' Trent Jn, Stow Park, Saxilby and Lincoln SCC (which I think is open continuously, or at least earlier on Sunday anyway). None of them (apart from Lincoln) open much before 1400 currently (West Burton not until 1800).

I know it will upset people who like the old signal boxs but on the side of progress it will be a lot better when most of these signal boxs are taken out of service and replaced by 1 or 2.

I think ive read that Woodburn - Thrumpton ( Not Worksop as its new ) are going from 2015/6 ?

I am no expert, I would just like to see a better service in Lincolnshire one day

 

[Tomnick]

I'm sure those who like the mechanical boxes will be upset, but not half as much as those who rely on them to pay the bills! Progress is progress though. It's not as bad as you make it sound though - not only Worksop, but the older panel at Thrumpton covers a large area and West Burton can (and does) switch out. I thought, but could be wrong, that it was Gainsboro' Trent Jn, Stow Park and Saxilby going first.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maltby is a town with around 20,000 people, so a reasonable shout for a town to reconnect to the rail network, but this service to Worksop and Doncaster would be in the wrong direction, given that the natural market is eastwards to Rotherham, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

Maltby railway station was originally a proposal put forward by the South Yorkshire Joint Railway and had its services provided by the Great Central Railway. It had a somewhat chequered history:-
Opened : 1st December 1910
Closed : 1st April 1926
Reopened : 25th July 1927
Closed : 2nd December 1929

 

[Yew]

It can be done, as indeed it is every evening.
Train from Nottingham arrives in Worksop at 1907
Train from Sheffield to Lincoln arr/dep at 1913
Train from Lincoln to Sheffield arr/dep at 1916
Train to Nottingham departs from Worksop at 1923
This allows good connections to/from both Sheffield and Lincoln

Is this the movement that generally generally involves the EMT train crossing the level crossing at the east side of the station twice? Its a very nice piece of scheduling,