Road spending vs Rail spending.

[tomuk]

The correct level is one where quality public services are being provided; see Scandinavia or the Netherlands for an idea.

2022 Gov Spend % GDP

UK 45.144 %
Netherlands 44.144 %
Sweden 46.793 %
Norway 38.507 %
Denmark 49.189 %
So more than the much vaunted car obsessed, motorway laden Netherlands.

 

[yorksrob]

At a considerable loss of convenience and freedom. The Netherlands and Germany, both often cited as exemplars of public transport, have very high car ownership and use levels. People want the convenience of their own vehicle, and most are not particularly concerned about saving money at the cost of the life change that goes with relying on public transport in all its guises.

And yet they manage to have a decent public transport system that doesn't cost the earth to passengers. Why is this country incapable !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2023 ==

We've had 60 years of pro-car planning and designing, to the point of public transport just being an afterthought to be tucked in if lucky. How is this going to change? This is going to be very difficult to reverse.

Yes, but he'll probably plump for Outer Bristol Mall or Tech. Park in his car!

It might be difficult to change, but the best start would be by not running down, and enabling better use of the public transport that we have.

 

[A0]

And yet they manage to have a decent public transport system that doesn't cost the earth to passengers. Why is this country incapable !

Yet if you read the Eurobarometer surveys - last one I can find was pre-pandemic in 2018, the UK's rail network always comes out well, with high levels of satisfaction.

Eurobarometer

eurobarometer

europa.eu

Higher than the EU average and higher than Germany or the Netherlands.

 

[RT4038]

And yet they manage to have a decent public transport system that doesn't cost the earth to passengers. Why is this country incapable !

Because we are institutionally carist and economically structurally different to those countries.

 

[Starmill]

Yet if you read the Eurobarometer surveys - last one I can find was pre-pandemic in 2018, the UK's rail network always comes out well, with high levels of satisfaction.

Eurobarometer

eurobarometer

europa.eu

Higher than the EU average and higher than Germany or the Netherlands.

That's only a measure of the satisfaction of existing users.

 

[yorksrob]

Yet if you read the Eurobarometer surveys - last one I can find was pre-pandemic in 2018, the UK's rail network always comes out well, with high levels of satisfaction.

Eurobarometer

eurobarometer

europa.eu

Higher than the EU average and higher than Germany or the Netherlands.

Pre-pandemic might as well have been the last century for all the relevance it has to the current situation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2023 ==

Because we are institutionally carist and economically structurally different to those countries.

Economically badly run by the free market brigade, more like.

 

[Starmill]

Because we are institutionally carist

Maybe you and your family or friends are, but I think that nothing about British culture is inherently more disposed to private motoring or against walking, cycling, or travelling on buses, metros or trains.

People in Cambridge are far more likely than on average in English cities to ride bicycles because it's made easier and cheaper than the alternatives, not because they're institutional cyclists. People in London are far more likely to be using a bus than in other English cities because there's a frequent bus service with comprehensive coverage running at all hours, not because they're institutionally pro-bus.

 

[A0]

Because we are institutionally carist and economically structurally different to those countries.

But are we really ? Public spending levels are similar as %age of GDP, economies are similar in profile.

Economically badly run by the free market brigade, more like.

Feel free to decamp to somewhere which fits your views more closely, but beware, the grass usually isn't greener.

 

[yorksrob]

Feel free to decamp to somewhere which fits your views more closely, but beware, the grass usually isn't greener.

No, I'd prefer my own country to be properly run, thank you very much.

 

[A0]

People in Cambridge are far more likely than on average in English cities to ride bicycles because it's made easier and cheaper than the alternatives, not because they're institutional cyclists.

Cambridge has a higher than average student population and the Cambridge colleges have blocked, obstructed and impeded pretty much any development in central Cambridge for the last 2 centuries.

In some ways it's a pity the Luftwaffe destroyed Coventry and missed Cambridge - life could have been quite interesting had it been the other way around.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2023 ==

No, I'd prefer my own country to be properly run, thank you very much.

"Properly run" in your opinion.

I have no problem with how the country is being run - and probably don't want it run in the way you do. Fortunately for me, in the last 30 or so years, people have agreed with my outlook more often than they've agreed with you.

 

[Starmill]

Economically badly run by the free market brigade, more like.

It's funny how we are often told we have to adhere to market forces when it comes to the good operation of train and bus services, but there's near-zero influence of market forces when it comes to building, operating or using highways. The M6Toll is pretty much the sole example of a major road scheme with anything even vaguely approaching free market pricing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2023 ==

Fortunately for me, in the last 30 or so years, people have agreed with my outlook more often than they've agreed with you.

I don't think that's remotely true. All that's happened is some people have been better than others at winning elections. Our elections are very poorly proportional to the actual votes cast.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Oh, come off it.

If you take Lune Gorge, neither the railway nor the M6 have added to it.

I'd certainly not say the railway detracts from it, whereas a 6-lane motorway does.

I agree with Bletchleylite - also the railway has been there for nearly 200 years. The M6 was built in the 1960s iirc and is an eyesore IMHO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2022 Gov Spend % GDP

UK 45.144 %
Netherlands 44.144 %
Sweden 46.793 %
Norway 38.507 %
Denmark 49.189 %
So more than the much vaunted car obsessed, motorway laden Netherlands.

% GDP is a bad measure, because the factors that determine how much needs spending on roads, rail etc have nothing to do with the country's earning.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

People in London are far more likely to be using a bus than in other English cities because there's a frequent bus service with comprehensive coverage running at all hours, not because they're institutionally pro-bus.

And the Tube as well of course. If I lived in London I don't think I would own a car.

 

[Starmill]

Cambridge has a higher than average student population and the Cambridge colleges have blocked, obstructed and impeded pretty much any development in central Cambridge for the last 2 centuries.

So you agree British people are perfectly happy with cycling when it's made easy to do then?

 

[A0]

% GDP is a bad measure, because the factors that determine how much needs spending on roads, rail etc have nothing to do with the country's earning.

Well GDP determines *how much* you can spend. You can't spend more than you earn - and if you try, you'll usually destroy your credit rating.

 

[tomuk]

% GDP is a bad measure, because the factors that determine how much needs spending on roads, rail etc have nothing to do with the country's earning.

But you suggested in general across the board that the UK should spend more to ensure quality public services like the Netherlands who spend the same if not slightly less than we already do.

 

[The exile]

So you agree British people are perfectly happy with cycling when it's made easy to do then?

Unfortunately topography means that for much of the country cycling can never be made “easy”.

 

[tomuk]

Well GDP determines *how much* you can spend. You can't spend more than you earn - and if you try, you'll usually destroy your credit rating.

Don't tell anyone but we were also running a 6% deficit compared to the Netherlands 1%.

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately topography means that for much of the country cycling can never be made “easy”.

This is wrong. Please read the previous posts.

 

[yorksrob]

"Properly run" in your opinion.

I have no problem with how the country is being run - and probably don't want it run in the way you do. Fortunately for me, in the last 30 or so years, people have agreed with my outlook more often than they've agreed with you.

Fortunately people might be beginning to notice that our peer group countries in Western Europe aren't actually socialist hell holes, and that flogging off the family silver to every Tom, Dick and Harry isn't necessarily the best way forward.

 

[A0]

Unfortunately topography means that for much of the country cycling can never be made “easy”.

Don't tell Bletchleyite that..... apparently most of the UK is "flat"..... [post #56].

 

[yorksrob]

It's funny how we are often told we have to adhere to market forces when it comes to the good operation of train and bus services, but there's near-zero influence of market forces when it comes to building, operating or using highways. The M6Toll is pretty much the sole example of a major road scheme with anything even vaguely approaching free market pricing.
[

That's a very good idea.

If the market is so efficient, why hasn't the highway been privatised ?

 

[Starmill]

But you suggested in general across the board that the UK should spend more to ensure quality public services like the Netherlands who spend the same if not slightly less than we already do.

The data you quote don't appear to have corrected for public sector spending which is in scope in the UK but not in many places on the Continent, such as mandatory health insurance.

 

[A0]

Fortunately people might be beginning to notice that our peer group countries in Western Europe aren't actually socialist hell holes, and that flogging off the family silver to every Tom, Dick and Harry isn't necessarily the best way forward.

Most of them don't elect socialist governments either - and on the few occasions they have, they've invariably kicked them out in a fairly short time.

 

[yorksrob]

Most of them don't elect socialist governments either - and on the few occasions they have, they've invariably kicked them out in a fairly short time.

And they don't always elect market obsessives either.

Perhaps there's a middle way.

 

[A0]

And they don't always elect market obsessives either.

Perhaps there's a middle way.

Well actually they do - judging by the similar levels of public spending, the mix of private and public in their economies etc.

 

[tomuk]

The data you quote don't appear to have corrected for public sector spending which is in scope in the UK but not in many places on the Continent, such as mandatory health insurance.

They are the IMF figures from their World Economic Outlook Database.

 

[cactustwirly]

You could perhaps rephrase that as "the places where most people live in the UK aren't hilly". Much of the middle of Wales is hilly, as is much of rural Scotland and northern England, as is that fairly large area of nothingness west of Leicester and east of Birmingham, north of Northampton and south of Rugby, but comparatively few people live in those places.

But this is just being finiticky as @A0wen was. The points are twofold:

1. A lot of people in the UK live in places where cycling with an unpowered bicycle is entirely feasible for any able bodied adult.

2. For those who don't, an e-bike will remove the hills for you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2023 ==



Nobody is proposing to do away with roads.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2023 ==



Even a driver who hate cyclists benefits from segregated cycle paths, as if the cyclist is on a segregated path they're not on the road in front of them, and if more drivers switch to cycling they're not in the queue in front of them.

I'm confident that this, rather than some sort of community-mindedness, is the reason why drivers don't villify cyclists in the Netherlands (aside from that most drivers there are also cyclists).

Pretty much the whole area south and west of London is hilly!

You have the Chilterns, South Downs, Surrey Hills, Wessex Downs and Cotswolds etc

 

[yorksrob]

Well actually they do - judging by the similar levels of public spending, the mix of private and public in their economies etc.

Well, they clearly don't, otherwise they wouldn't have such a wide range of public companies to purchase our privatised industries !