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The TOCs aren’t really businesses any more? Are you sure about that? It’ll certainly be news to the shareholders of the owning groups, someone had better write to them!
It’s a nonsensical statement.
Actually the Southern dispute was resolved primarily because DOO had already been agreed with ASLEF many years prior, and was in the drivers’ contracts. I detect that you just like the idea of conditions being unilaterally imposed.
You’ll find there are also still many trains running through Waterloo East which carry guards.
And, as above, many TOCs have robust Sunday working and have done for years.
Overall another post which shows how little you really understand about the railway’s ownership structure and the operational aspects you weigh in to discuss.
They aren't making money from customers buying tickets, or from providing a good quality of service. A train company with no revenue risk isn't a proper a business.
The Southern dispute was in fact resolved when the changes were imposed and there was no longer a pending change to be in dispute about.
The nonsensical statement is that a pre existing arrangement with ASLEF ended the dispute, a year or so after it began.
The unions will never agree to mandatory Sunday working without a huge pay rise. That isn't going to happen and as reliable Sunday services are a must, the sooner the pay is agreed separately and the working practices imposed the sooner this ends and we get the railway the country needs.
Anyone know why the RMT/ASLEF and the RDG only ever seem to meet once a week? What’s that all about? No wonder this has been going on for almost a year now.
Anyone know why the RMT/ASLEF and the RDG only ever seem to meet once a week? What’s that all about? No wonder this has been going on almost a year now.
Because maybe the government hope that the unions will have to reballot and then don’t get enough support for further industrial action. Remember, a ballot is now only valid for six months. So if an employer can drag out talks…
Because maybe the government hope that the unions will have to reballot and then don’t get enough support for further industrial action. Remember, a ballot is now only valid for six months. So if an employer can drag out talks…
On the other hand, if the government were doing that, I’d expect both unions to have long since wised up to it and to have called further action. As things stand RMT have recently called TOC strikes off and ASLEF have called no further action for a long time now, specifically on the basis that things are progressing well. ASLEF in particular have a strong mandate and I couldn’t see any issue with them calling a week long strike if they felt it necessary.
On the other hand, if the government were doing that, I’d expect both unions to have long since wised up to it and to have called further action. As things stand RMT have recently called TOC strikes off and ASLEF have called no further action for a long time now, specifically on the basis that things are progressing well. ASLEF in particular have a strong mandate and I couldn’t see any issue with them calling a week long strike if they felt it necessary.
Hi there! Maybe you can persuade my manager to change my roster and bring back Sundays as voluntarily overtime. Because I think it’s been unfair that it’s been mandatory for thirty-one years and that most other people in this country don’t have them as mandatory days.
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They aren't making money from customers buying tickets, or from providing a good quality of service. A train company with no revenue risk isn't a proper a business.
You may not believe that TOCs supported by the government are not “proper” businesses, but the law and the courts still consider them to be legitimate businesses.
The unions will never agree to mandatory Sunday working without a huge pay rise. That isn't going to happen and as reliable Sunday services are a must, the sooner the pay is agreed separately and the working practices imposed the sooner this ends and we get the railway the country needs.
Here we go again. The railway workers are told that going on strike will not have a significant effect because of large numbers of people who can change their plans or work from home.
But now, suddenly, “reliable Sunday services are a must”.
There is a good reason why engineering work takes place on Saturday nights and Sundays…
Oh, and it’s possible for a union to be in dispute about working practices at any time. However, the bigger problem is that in some areas, the railways are having increasing difficulty recruiting and retaining staff, as the younger staff discover that working horrible shift patterns messes up their own lives.
And when short staffed, which services on which day do you think get dropped?
Maybe because service is worse on Sundays so there's less passengers who plan to travel on Sundays.
If Sunday service was made the same as Saturday service, I bet those services would be used more.
Maybe because service is worse on Sundays so there's less passengers who plan to travel on Sundays.
If Sunday service was made the same as Saturday service, I bet those services would be used more.
You may be right. But when else is the railway supposed to carry out engineering work that requires a longer period of time than an overnight closure?
Before the COVID19 pandemic, in most areas, the Sunday services were significantly better than those that BR offered thirty odd years ago.
The real reason why progress is slow, is because improving Sunday services are currently not a high priority. Currently saving money is the biggest priority. The passenger is coming in a poor second.
But, but.... greedy drivers are demanding an inflation-level pay rise whilst nurses are having to resort to using food banks (according to some on here).
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And whilst that is clearly not an ideal situation from the passengers' viewpoint, it still seems to work at many TOCs with no shortage of willing volunteers. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Hi there! Maybe you can persuade my manager to change my roster and bring back Sundays as voluntarily overtime. Because I think it’s been unfair that it’s been mandatory for thirty-one years and that most other people in this country don’t have them as mandatory days.
But, but.... greedy drivers are demanding an inflation-level pay rise whilst nurses are having to resort to using food banks (according to some on here).
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I think you may have not quite got the meaning. I’m not being serious about wanting more people to be required to work Sundays. Rather, companies should be putting in place an environment where staff are happy to volunteer to work weekends. Unhappy staff will be less likely to volunteer. And productivity will be worse overall if your staff are unhappy. Why would you go the extra mile if you hate what they (the company) have done in the name of so called progress?
I think you may have not quite got the meaning. I’m not being serious about wanting more people to be required to work Sundays. Rather, companies should be putting in place an environment where staff are happy to volunteer to work weekends. Unhappy staff will be less likely to volunteer. And productivity will be worse overall if your staff are unhappy. Why would you go the extra mile if you hate what they (the company) have done in the name of so called progress?
Pleased to hear it mate. Yes, well run, new train fleet & one of those where terms & conditions benefit both staff & passengers when it comes to weekend working.
On my visit from Oz, in October 2022, on the 1530 hours weekday ex Waterloo with (unit 110?), my ticket was checked 10 minutes after departure, which I thought efficient. Similarly next day to Sheringham and back. Staff were pleasant and clearly focused on collecting revenue, and the drivers were uniformly smooth. Plus the railcars seemed clean and well cared for, although being relatively new probably assists.
I agree with many TOCs, the relative lack of Sunday frequencies, especially on Sunday mornings, remains poor. Obviously not the case at GA. I could not find an early morning train from the major Lancs. station of Preston to connect with a tour, so had to give up on any idea of patronising it. While I manage to find a Catholic Church that has a Saturday Vigil Mass when travelling, with perhaps churchgoing being an historic reason for the lack of Sunday morning trains, your railway staff need to realise that with such a large population, it ought become a seven day a week operation, not six and a half. This needs funding for subsidies that I appreciate may not immediately be forthcoming from the national government.
In my distant country, generally speaking, Saturday and Sunday frequencies are identical. Often poorer than weekday off peak, but on a couple of lines in Melbourne that branch, the frequency on weekends is better than weekdays at every 10 instead of every 15 minutes prior to the junction.
If I was a Ministerial adviser I'd express surprise that railway staff seem so reluctant to work on weekends. It's an essential service. Imagine if nurses or police took the same view? It's outdated, and needs to change forthwith.
Even more important given worldwide leisure weekend travel by rail is doing extremely well.
I could not find an early morning train from the major Lancs. station of Preston to connect with a tour, so had to give up on any idea of patronising it. While I manage to find a Catholic Church that has a Saturday Vigil Mass when travelling, with perhaps churchgoing being an historic reason for the lack of Sunday morning trains, your railway staff need to realise that with such a large population, it ought become a seven day a week operation, not six and a half. This needs funding for subsidies that I appreciate may not immediately be forthcoming from the national government.
If I was a Ministerial adviser I'd express surprise that railway staff seem so reluctant to work on weekends. It's an essential service. Imagine if nurses or police took the same view? It's outdated, and needs to change forthwith.
Even more important given worldwide leisure weekend travel by rail is doing extremely well.
They aren't making money from customers buying tickets, or from providing a good quality of service. A train company with no revenue risk isn't a proper a business.
None of that changes the fact that TOCs remain “proper” profit making businesses by any normal definition. Whether they take revenue risk or not is irrelevant. Arriva Rail London, a concession holder, has never taken revenue risk, so I take it you don’t think they’re a “proper” business?!
As I say, their own shareholders will have a different view, so I’m not sure how relevant your definition really is, when it appears to be unique to you!
As I have already pointed out, DOO was already in the GTR drivers’ contracts, because ASLEF had agreed to it many years before, which is why they had no choice but to accept it. This was discussed on here in great detail at the time. If you are denying that, or that that is what ultimately ended the dispute, I can assure you it is you who is talking nonsense.
The unions will never agree to mandatory Sunday working without a huge pay rise. That isn't going to happen and as reliable Sunday services are a must, the sooner the pay is agreed separately and the working practices imposed the sooner this ends and we get the railway the country needs.
That’s funny, because many parts of the railway already have reliable Sunday services, and many rail staff already have Sundays inside their working weeks, or as committed overtime, but of course you aren’t interested in any of that. There’s absolutely no sign of conditions being imposed, either. Sorry to disappoint you.
As has been pointed out to you many times before, where sundays are voluntary, that’s only the case because it has suited the TOCs. So quite why you seem to think traincrew should suddenly be expected to change their Ts and Cs for no compensation is anyone’s guess - presumably because you have some resentment of railway staff, which is a recurring theme in your postings.
And? Many traincrew (myself included) have Sundays inside and work two out of three weekends.
Only a small % of the overall workforce work Sundays. Many more people work 9-5 Monday to Friday, wouldn’t dream of working weekends, and could never hack railway shift work in a million years. But are quite happy for others to do it, and moan to high heaven when things are closed at the weekend, and it interferes with their guaranteed leisure time…
You would have been happy to be told that, instead of Monday to Friday as per the contract you signed, you were now expected to come in at weekends too, as enforced overtime?
As for routes where Sunday is the busiest day, can you point them out? Sunday is the quietest day across the railway, hence why engineering is done then. That also has nothing to do with traincrew Sunday staffing arrangements.
If I was a Ministerial adviser I'd express surprise that railway staff seem so reluctant to work on weekends. It's an essential service. Imagine if nurses or police took the same view? It's outdated, and needs to change forthwith.
How many more times does it need to be pointed out?
Railway staff work weekends. Personally I have Sundays inside and work two or three Saturdays, so hardly “reluctant to work on weekends”. Where Sundays are outside the working week, that’s only because the TOCs have wanted it that way, and have recruited staff on those terms.
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This is pointed out to the same people over and over again, yet some are clearly more interested in bashing unions and traincrew than they are in facts…
None of that changes the fact that TOCs remain “proper” profit making businesses by any definition. Whether they take revenue risk or not is irrelevant. Arriva Rail London, a concession holder, has never taken revenue risk, so I take it you don’t think they’re a “proper” business?!
As I say, their own shareholders will have a different view, so I’m not sure how relevant your definition really is, when it appears to be unique to you!
As I have already pointed out, DOO was already in the GTR drivers’ contracts, because ASLEF had agreed to it many years before, which is why they had no choice but to accept it. This was discussed on here in great detail at the time. If you are denying that, or that that is what ultimately ended the dispute, I can assure you it is you who is talking nonsense.
That’s funny, because many parts of the railway already have reliable Sunday services, and many rail staff already have Sundays inside their working weeks, or as committed overtime, but of course you aren’t interested in any of that. There’s absolutely no sign of conditions being imposed, either. Sorry to disappoint you.
As has been pointed out to you many times before, where sundays are voluntary, that’s only the case because it has suited the TOCs. So quite why you seem to think traincrew should suddenly be expected to change their Ts and Cs for no compensation is anyone’s guess - presumably because you have some resentment of railway staff, which is a recurring theme in your postings.
And? Many traincrew (myself included) have Sundays inside and work two out of three weekends.
Only a small % of the overall workforce work Sundays. Many more people work 9-5 Monday to Friday, wouldn’t dream of working weekends, and could never hack railway shift work in a million years. But are quite happy for others to do it, and moan to high heaven when things are closed at the weekend, and it interferes with their guaranteed leisure time…
You would have been happy to be told that, instead of Monday to Friday as per the contract you signed, you were now expected to come in at weekends too, as enforced overtime?
As for routes where Sunday is the busiest day, can you point them out? Sunday is the quietest day across the railway, hence why engineering is done then. That also has nothing to do with traincrew Sunday staffing arrangements.
How many more times does it need to be pointed out?
Railway staff work weekends. Personally I have Sundays inside and work two or three Saturdays, so hardly “reluctant to work on weekends”. Where Sundays are outside the working week, that’s only because the TOCs have wanted it that way, and have recruited staff on those terms.
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This is pointed out to the same people over and over again, yet some are clearly more interested in bashing unions and traincrew than they are in facts…
ECML for LNER the busiest day of the week is now Saturday and Sunday, hence why on Sundays LNER run 3 trains per hour to/from Edinburgh at certain hours throughout the day.
Also on May 16/17th there is midweek engineering work between Newark and Grantham (I think that is the section), which will close the main route and mean services are diverted.
I believe this is a trial to see how midweek block works compared to a weekend, to try to protect the now busier weekend leisure travel.
ECML for LNER the busiest day of the week is now Saturday and Sunday, hence why on Sundays LNER run 3 trains per hour to/from Edinburgh at certain hours throughout the day.
Also on May 16/17th there is midweek engineering work between Newark and Grantham (I think that is the section), which will close the main route and mean services are diverted.
I believe this is a trial to see how midweek block works compared to a weekend, to try to protect the now busier weekend leisure travel.
ECML for LNER the busiest day of the week is now Saturday and Sunday, hence why on Sundays LNER run 3 trains per hour to/from Edinburgh at certain hours throughout the day.
Also on May 16/17th there is midweek engineering work between Newark and Grantham (I think that is the section), which will close the main route and mean services are diverted.
I believe this is a trial to see how midweek block works compared to a weekend, to try to protect the now busier weekend leisure travel.
None of that changes the fact that TOCs remain “proper” profit making businesses by any normal definition. Whether they take revenue risk or not is irrelevant. Arriva Rail London, a concession holder, has never taken revenue risk, so I take it you don’t think they’re a “proper” business?!
As I say, their own shareholders will have a different view, so I’m not sure how relevant your definition really is, when it appears to be unique to you!
DfT TOCs are “public non-financial corporations” now, very much different from franchises or concessions in that they carry no real revenue (franchise) or cost (concession) risk.
The TOC still stays as a company, under the wing of an owning group (OG) but the OG is now just involved in a Management role, on behalf of the DfT. The OG doesn’t now make any real decisions - they come from the DfT. At the end of the contracted period, the company’s activities and staff (if not the company itself) will revert to the DfT.
For operating the company on behalf of the DfT, the OG receives a fee, paid through the TOC concerned into the OG’s books. There is a fixed base fee and a contract performance fee, the latter relating to more than just train performance or revenue. The maximum performance fee is usually about 2.5 times the fixed base fee and all fees go one way, towards the TOC. There are no penalty fees.
Although TOCs are still companies, they behave very differently now to franchised or concession rail companies. The emphasis by the OG is now to maximise that fee, not necessarily to grow the individual business.
As far as the staff are concerned, unless the TOC gets a mandate from the DfT, they can’t agree any changes to terms and conditions. Also, if the DfT wants something in at a TOC, such as DOO or booking office closures, the TOC has to carry out its wishes.
I’d be amazed if that turns out not to be the case. As far as I'm aware, the budget for the railway from the treasury hasn’t increased, so there is still no extra money to fund payrise.
I’d be amazed if that turns out not to be the case. As far as I'm aware, the budget for the railway from the treasury hasn’t increased, so there is still no extra money to fund payrise.
I wasn't referring to this bizarre idea of compulsory overtime. I meant a working week spread over all seven days to meet the needs of the business. While Sunday may be quiet on commuter routes it is one of the busiest days on others.
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