RMT TOC strike action called off

[Railwayowl80]

For me personally the ability to hopefully from what it sounds like to negotiate on a toc to toc basis on 23/24 pay deal and T&Cs would be a huge deal for us that’s the only thing I’d say the government has moved on.
pay and all the rest seems the same, but rather then a blanket right all guards having there terms change and platform staff because as previously mention some tocs already have Sunday in there working week for example

 

[43066]

For me personally the ability to hopefully from what it sounds like to negotiate on a toc to toc basis on 23/24 pay deal and T&Cs would be a huge deal for us that’s the only thing I’d say the government has moved on.
pay and all the rest seems the same, but rather then a blanket right all guards having there terms change and platform staff because as previously mention some tocs already have Sunday in there working week for example

To be fair that marks a fundamental change to the government’s approach over the last year, which we have been repeatedly told on here would never waver!

 

[Railwayowl80]

To be fair that marks a fundamental change to the government’s approach over the last year, which we have been repeatedly told on here would never waver!

Exactly along with network rails full and final offer that went on to change
I’ve only worked on the railway for what like 14 years I hate striking hate inconveniencing the public who can’t make plans because of the uncertainty I can’t speak for everyone but myself if this offer was on the table at the beginning I think we wouldn’t even be having this conversation because I reckon we would of took it

 

[Meerkat]

To be fair that marks a fundamental change to the government’s approach over the last year, which we have been repeatedly told on here would never waver!

I never really understood why the government wanted to negotiate at national level, particularly as the differing start points of the various TOC T&Cs meant a decent chance of divide and rule. I assumed it was the union that demanded national negotiation so they could get more people out on strike at once.

 

[Annetts key]

I never really understood why the government wanted to negotiate at national level, particularly as the differing start points of the various TOC T&Cs meant a decent chance of divide and rule. I assumed it was the union that demanded national negotiation so they could get more people out on strike at once.

This is why some saw this as a union bashing move by the government, rather than normal industrial relations. The talks did not make much progress because the employer(s) side were constrained.

 

[Silverlinky]

There has been a climbdown on both sides which is good to see. At the start of this dispute the RMT line was about no payrises for four years, inflation running at 15% and the like. To be on the verge of accepting 5% for one year doesn't really address those concerns and issues does it?

 

[Railwayowl80]

There has been a climbdown on both sides which is good to see. At the start of this dispute the RMT line was about no payrises for four years, inflation running at 15% and the like. To be on the verge of accepting 5% for one year doesn't really address those concerns and issues does it?

Again personally I don’t think people thought we was gonna be getting a double digit Payrise I don’t even think a number was ever stated on what would bring this dispute to an end.

but I do feel it went straight from about pay to T&Cs maybe that was the plan all a long from the government side let’s hammer your T&Cs to the point we will have you settle at a lower % payrise but with T&Cs untouched suppose there is loads of unanswered questions.

But I do hope this is it had loads of working conditions changed over the years but was done at toc level and it never got to this point where we are now was always kinda done on a common ground you gave a little up you got a little in return

 

[43066]

I never really understood why the government wanted to negotiate at national level, particularly as the differing start points of the various TOC T&Cs meant a decent chance of divide and rule. I assumed it was the union that demanded national negotiation so they could get more people out on strike at once.

No, the unions from the start have wanted to negotiate locally, but the TOCs have been prevented from doing so by the government, via the NRCs. The pretence of a “national level negotiation” was because the government wanted the optics of an industrial dispute, which they had no intention of settling. That position now appears to have changed.

There has been a climbdown on both sides which is good to see. At the start of this dispute the RMT line was about no payrises for four years, inflation running at 15% and the like. To be on the verge of accepting 5% for one year doesn't really address those concerns and issues does it?

Well, to a point. The big change now appears to have been on the government’s side. The unions would have settled for far below inflation months ago had a proper negotiation been allowed (as we know from Wales and Scotland), but the government actively prevented that from taking place.

 

[Tw99]

No, the unions from the start have wanted to negotiate locally, but the TOCs have been prevented from doing so by the government, via the NRCs. The pretence of a “national level negotiation” was because the government wanted the optics of an industrial dispute, which they had no intention of settling. That position now appears to have changed.



Well, to a point. The big change now appears to have been on the government’s side. The unions would have settled for far below inflation months ago had a proper negotiation been allowed (as we know from Wales and Scotland), but the government actively prevented that from taking place.

People have a touching faith in "the government" being able to actually do things. In reality, there have been a number of different rail ministers (let alone prime ministers) in the course of this dispute, and I doubt that they'd all have the same view on how to run it, so I'd bet that more than 90% of what's been seen is really down to the planning and management by DfT officials.

 

[Carlisle]

The unions would have settled for far below inflation months ago had a proper negotiation been allowed (as we know from Wales and Scotland)

Only if it’d been a no strings attached deal which the Wales & Scottish ones essentially were.

 

[43066]

Only if it’d been a no strings attached deal which the Wales & Scottish ones essentially were.

Those deals weren’t essentially no strings - they involved modest changes to Ts and Cs in exchange for a derisory pay rise, still a cut in real terms, as with many other sectors.

That would have been a far better outcome for both English rail passengers and taxpayers, and for the wider economy, than the mess we have seen over the past year.

 

[Annetts key]

Err, a few points.

Politicians are usually rank amateurs (although there are obviously some exceptions) in the office to which they are appointed. Not helped by some being career politicians (not having much experience of a “real” job).

Government ministers either deal with the high level stuff and leave the details to the civil service, or they macro manage it. Either way, the civil service have to implement government policy.

Some government ministers put either their own or that of the party, ideology/whatever you want to call it into practice. Sometimes this works, other times, not so much.

Government is one big talking shop. Occasionally they produce a good law or a good decision. But unfortunately bad laws or bad decisions are just as likely. That is the consequence of democracy.

 

[43066]

Any further updates on this?

There seemed to be a suggestion that more information would be forthcoming today.

 

[LowLevel]

Any further updates on this?

There seemed to be a suggestion that more information would be forthcoming today.

Next week for more gen apparently, what came out yesterday was pretty detailed but apparently further talks next week on the specifics.

 

[43066]

Next week for more gen apparently, what came out yesterday was pretty detailed but apparently further talks next week on the specifics.

Many thanks.

 

[317 forever]

Meeting again on 4th April.

Late enough to guarantee no strikes at Easter thankfully.

 

[L+Y]

Out of interest, where has the ASLEF dispute got to?

 

[43066]

Out of interest, where has the ASLEF dispute got to?

Another meeting this week, I believe.

By all accounts it is going in a similar direction to the RMT dispute, so I would expect a resolution along the same lines.

 

[L+Y]

Another meeting this week, I believe.

By all accounts it is going in a similar direction to the RMT dispute, so I would expect a resolution along the same lines.

Thanks for the prompt response!

 

[Sleepy]

Late enough to guarantee no strikes at Easter thankfully.

Don't think either union would have been to keen on that after media fuss about Christmas ? Which essentially was lunchtime shutdown when most services on Christmas Eve run almost empty after 1400 anyway.

 

[Kite159]

Don't think either union would have been to keen on that after media fuss about Christmas ? Which essentially was lunchtime shutdown when most services on Christmas Eve run almost empty after 1400 anyway.

Whenever did the unions care about public opinion?

 

[Wolfie]

If suspended could the RMT reintroduce if the talks fail again beforehand?

Given the legal obligation to give 14 days notice of industrial action probably not (at least for the same dates).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2023 ==

Err, a few points.

Politicians are usually rank amateurs (although there are obviously some exceptions) in the office to which they are appointed. Not helped by some being career politicians (not having much experience of a “real” job).

Government ministers either deal with the high level stuff and leave the details to the civil service, or they macro manage it. Either way, the civil service have to implement government policy.

Some government ministers put either their own or that of the party, ideology/whatever you want to call it into practice. Sometimes this works, other times, not so much.

Government is one big talking shop. Occasionally they produce a good law or a good decision. But unfortunately bad laws or bad decisions are just as likely. That is the consequence of democracy.

You've got it!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2023 ==

If l was to be really cynical (and boy does working in Whitehall for over 30 years make you so) the Government is closing down current strikes but that is postponing rather than slipping the conflict. The issues will likely come back but after the minimum service level legislation is in place....

 

[43066]

The issues will likely come back but after the minimum service level legislation is in place....

Or after they’ve been booted out of office!

It will be interesting to see whether a future labour government does repeal the proposed legislation as they have indicated they will.

 

[Wolfie]

Or after they’ve been booted out of office!

It will be interesting to see whether a future labour government does repeal the proposed legislation as they have indicated they will.

Indeed in both cases.

 

[baz962]

Another meeting this week, I believe.

By all accounts it is going in a similar direction to the RMT dispute, so I would expect a resolution along the same lines.

I thought it is 4th April, next week

 

[43066]

I thought it is 4th April, next week

You may well be correct. I wish they’d get on with it!

 

[baz962]

I know. Very frustrating.

 

[Goldfish62]

Given the legal obligation to give 14 days notice of industrial action probably not (at least for the same dates).

Definitely not rather than probably not.

In respect of the legislation the term "suspended strike" is a nonsense. It's cancelled. Any revised strike date is a new strike date, with minimum 14 days notice required.

 

[High Dyke]

Yeah it’s better than I thought, basically back to how a union and employer would normally conduct business.

Which may suggest that whilst the Government were falling out amongst themselves in select committee meetings, it was left to the employers and TU to have adult discussion without the finger of Whitehall interfering.

However, the devil will be in the detail and how this would be suitably implemented. With the Network Rail dispute many saw the carrot, but not the stick in the detail of the agreed deal. Hopefully, this proposal for TOC members won't be detrimental to them or the future wellbeing of the rail network.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Which may suggest that whilst the Government were falling out amongst themselves in select committee meetings, it was left to the employers and TU to have adult discussion without the finger of Whitehall interfering.

However, the devil will be in the detail and how this would be suitably implemented. With the Network Rail dispute many saw the carrot, but not the stick in the detail of the agreed deal. Hopefully, this proposal for TOC members won't be detrimental to them or the future wellbeing of the rail network.

It will depend on what information is given regarding the year 2/3 of the offer.

Currently it would be a very shortsighted decision to simply accept what is on the table - yes there is the unconditional offer for last year, but anything for the following 2 years will be based on the efficiencies given in return.

Some TOCs don't have much to give, and are currently well renumerated for it - would they accept this knowing that there will be no pay rises in the short-medium term?

Other TOCs have plenty of terms to give in exchange and currently earn far less than the above TOCs. Would they be wise to accept this without knowing what terms would be required to give up to obtain any future rises, and without knowing whether any sort or harmonisation with the above TOCs would ever be possible?

It's very easy to say yes to resolving last year for the 5% unconditional offer on its own, and then move onto this year and next. Having them part of the same deal with no detail, to me, shows that's it's a bad deal or one that can be used to absolutely pillage the T&C's with no comeback.