RMT on the possible 2 year pay freeze

[Xenophon PCDGS]

UK rail union threatens industrial action if pay is frozen for two years

RMT leader Mick Cash furious after all 22 rail operating companies told there is no money to raise wages

www.theguardian.com

Have the RMT yet to issue one of their formal press releases (the type that always brightens even the darkest day) as well as this matter being reported in The Guardian (not one of the favourites with the Conservative Party)

 

[Bald Rick]

There is no end in sight for COVID and the way the Country works, so no rise in 2021, will mean the same in 2022, as they will argue nothing has changed !

It’s a two year freeze - so that’s already the case. Indeed it’s a three year freeze for some of us (ie those that didn’t have a pay rise last year).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Personally I would be happy with a pay freeze for a year or two on the basis that I can actually keep my job! It hasn't got any harder during the crisis, if anything it has got far easier - we are running less trains and carrying less passengers and there are days (like today) that I am being paid to sit at home because there is literally nothing to do and they are keen to keep us from sitting spare in messrooms which have reduced capacity. I suspect many of my colleagues feel the same - although we don't see much of each other now so it is difficult to get a good variety of views like it used to be in the good old days when we met colleagues and chatted in the messrooms!

Having said that there are also a good number who are completely oblivious to the real world situation and exist in a sort of railway bubble where they believe they have a god given right to a job and an above inflation annual pay rise no matter what. This is generally those who have been around the longest and have survived franchise changes in the past.

This is fuelled by RMT propaganda which is almost exclusively based on two key points - a) that the nasty fat cat bosses, TOC owning groups and shareholders are living in grand mansions and rolling around in pots of money milked from the train company due to the hard slave like labour of the employees and b) that TOC employees have singlehandedly saved the nation from ruin by selflessly putting themselves in the front line of danger, risking their life [i.e. they could catch Covid] every time they come to work and deserve to be rewarded accordingly. Of course both a) and b) are not entirely true but those employees who are susceptible to such propaganda believe it.

The TOC I work at did not get a pay rise in 2020 either. Traditionally pay rises are negotiated at the start of the year and are based on the previous year's performance and inflation levels. The TOC dilly dallied around at the start of 2020 and did not start to negotiate the 2020 pay increase (which is based on what happened in 2019) until after Covid had taken hold and lockdown 1 announced. They then declared they couldn't meet to discuss it due to lockdown and covid. In due course after refusing to meet the unions and postponing meetings endlessly they then announced they were unable to make a pay offer as the DfT wouldn't let them and they were skint due to the effects of Covid. I would quite happily accept a pay freeze in 2021 as that would be based on what happened in 2020 which was as we all know severely impacted by Covid. But 2019 was not affected by Covid so they don't really have an excuse on that one I'm afraid. If we have a 2 or 3 year pay freeze now then it is likely that is likely that at my TOC at least we would basically having a 3 or 4 year pay freeze. Even with everything else going on I am not entirely sure I would be happy with that.

 

[43096]

There is no end in sight for COVID and the way the Country works

Actually there is an end in sight. Why do you think we’re vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people per day?

 

[Philip]

Personally I would be happy with a pay freeze for a year or two on the basis that I can actually keep my job! It hasn't got any harder during the crisis, if anything it has got far easier - we are running less trains and carrying less passengers and there are days (like today) that I am being paid to sit at home because there is literally nothing to do and they are keen to keep us from sitting spare in messrooms which have reduced capacity. I suspect many of my colleagues feel the same - although we don't see much of each other now so it is difficult to get a good variety of views like it used to be in the good old days when we met colleagues and chatted in the messrooms!

Having said that there are also a good number who are completely oblivious to the real world situation and exist in a sort of railway bubble where they believe they have a god given right to a job and an above inflation annual pay rise no matter what. This is generally those who have been around the longest and have survived franchise changes in the past.

This is fuelled by RMT propaganda which is almost exclusively based on two key points - a) that the nasty fat cat bosses, TOC owning groups and shareholders are living in grand mansions and rolling around in pots of money milked from the train company due to the hard slave like labour of the employees and b) that TOC employees have singlehandedly saved the nation from ruin by selflessly putting themselves in the front line of danger, risking their life [i.e. they could catch Covid] every time they come to work and deserve to be rewarded accordingly. Of course both a) and b) are not entirely true but those employees who are susceptible to such propaganda believe it.

The TOC I work at did not get a pay rise in 2020 either. Traditionally pay rises are negotiated at the start of the year and are based on the previous year's performance and inflation levels. The TOC dilly dallied around at the start of 2020 and did not start to negotiate the 2020 pay increase (which is based on what happened in 2019) until after Covid had taken hold and lockdown 1 announced. They then declared they couldn't meet to discuss it due to lockdown and covid. In due course after refusing to meet the unions and postponing meetings endlessly they then announced they were unable to make a pay offer as the DfT wouldn't let them and they were skint due to the effects of Covid. I would quite happily accept a pay freeze in 2021 as that would be based on what happened in 2020 which was as we all know severely impacted by Covid. But 2019 was not affected by Covid so they don't really have an excuse on that one I'm afraid. If we have a 2 or 3 year pay freeze now then it is likely that is likely that at my TOC at least we would basically having a 3 or 4 year pay freeze. Even with everything else going on I am not entirely sure I would be happy with that.

I mean people who get paid more than the average person doing their job because of local divergence over the years. The objective would be to have a fair open and standardised pay system that can be justified to passengers and the treasury as reasonable value for money. Most public sector organisations have standardised pay grades. Now that the most of the rail system is now state owned or on EMAs it should have the same accountability. Some staff would get paid more, others less.



Yes, exactly what am I suggesting, give the staff a choice, sign up to a 7 day contract or take redundancy. With the amount of public money being spent on propping up the system, its absurd that Sundays are not part of the normal working week at all TOCs. I don't want to see railway careers turn into something mirroring airlines but railway staff need to realise they are expendable now and that their pay and working conditions can't be completely out of sync with the average person.



Yes. I don't see what the unions bargaining power would be. A skeleton strike day service and rail replacement buses would more than suffice for much of this year.

In terms of the basic rate of pay, I would say guards; booking office and dispatchers all have a fairly reasonable and fair salary for the jobs they do. The drivers, in my opinion, have quite an inflated pay packet which could be brought down a notch or two if we're talking about standardising the pay. Less so at TOCs like Northern, but most definitely at Avanti!

 

[Bald Rick]

Less so at TOCs like Northern, but most definitely at Avanti!

Ah, but you’re not comparing apples with apples. Ts and Cs vary, so whilst some TOCs pay more, their drivers may do more. E.g. Sundays inside the week.

 

[Philip]

Ah, but you’re not comparing apples with apples. Ts and Cs vary, so whilst some TOCs pay more, their drivers may do more. E.g. Sundays inside the week.

Perhaps, but I thought Avanti drivers earn somewhere around £20,000 more than Northern and TPE for example? Even allowing for the different T&Cs and intercity work; longer days and routes, and Sundays inside the working week, it seems a bit much.

 

[GB]

Is the reliance on overtime to run the railway common across all grades or only in the cab?

Because getting rid of that would allow substantial reductions in the staff bill, avoid cutting any jobs and remove a frankly cancerous practice from the industry.

It would not cut the wage bill by all that much if at all. If jobs are not covered on overtime then you will need more staff on the roster or the jobs would be uncovered. More staff means more wages, more uniform, more NI & pension contributions, more training, more holiday and sickness leave.

 

[HSTEd]

It would not cut the wage bill by all that much if at all. If jobs are not covered on overtime then you will need more staff on the roster or the jobs would be uncovered. More staff means more wages, more uniform, more NI & pension contributions, more training, more holiday and sickness leave.

Except we are going to be dramatically oversupplied with staff?

We won't be running anything like the number of trains that was projected.

 

[theironroad]

I don't want to see railway careers turn into something mirroring airlines but railway staff need to realise they are expendable now and that their pay and working conditions can't be completely out of sync with the average person.

Charming sentiment.

Work throughout then pandemic as normal, do extra hours to keep train services running when colleagues are shielding or sick, but just remember at the end of it that your expendable.

Obviously all civil servants and other government employees and those funded by the taxpayers such as peers in the lords and MPs and all their 'expenses' are in line with the 'average person'. Suppose this side hustle job that a conservative peer is the preferred candidate for is suitable.

Chair, Office for Students​

Closed

Body:	Office for Students
Appointing Department:	Department for Education
Sector:	Education
Location:	Bi-monthly board meetings usually take place in London (although they are currently through remote access); the OfS also has an office in Bristol which you will need to visit. Travel to meet stakeholders across England as needed.
Number of Vacancies:	1
Remuneration:	£59,000 per annum
Time Requirements:	2 days per week

 

[Chester1]

Charming sentiment.

Work throughout then pandemic as normal, do extra hours to keep train services running when colleagues are shielding or sick, but just remember at the end of it that your expendable.

Obviously all civil servants and other government employees and those funded by the taxpayers such as peers in the lords and MPs and all their 'expenses' are in line with the 'average person'. Suppose this side hustle job that a conservative peer is the preferred candidate for is suitable.

Chair, Office for Students​

Closed

Body:	Office for Students
Appointing Department:	Department for Education
Sector:	Education
Location:	Bi-monthly board meetings usually take place in London (although they are currently through remote access); the OfS also has an office in Bristol which you will need to visit. Travel to meet stakeholders across England as needed.
Number of Vacancies:	1
Remuneration:	£59,000 per annum
Time Requirements:	2 days per week

Like that is a normal public sector job...

Whether its pleasent or not the reality of the situation is that railway staff are expendable in a situation were passenger numbers have collasped and are unlikely to return to 2019 levels for years. If half of staff took redundancy rather than accepted new contracts then there would be sufficient staff to run enough services to meet demand until new staff could be trained over the course of 1-2 years.

There is a small section of railway staff who are very proud of the fact that unions have managed to force above inflation pay increases repeatedly for a generation and that they earn much more than the average person. They haven't left themselves in a good position. If the government announced standardised pay grades based on average of what individual TOCs pay and then imposed 7 day contracts, I doubt there would be much public support when people saw the pay levels staff decided to strike over.

 

[Philip]

Like that is a normal public sector job...

Whether its pleasent or not the reality of the situation is that railway staff are expendable in a situation were passenger numbers have collasped and are unlikely to return to 2019 levels for years. If half of staff took redundancy rather than accepted new contracts then there would be sufficient staff to run enough services to meet demand until new staff could be trained over the course of 1-2 years.

Why make some staff redundant, only to recruit and train new staff a couple of years down the line to effectively take over the job the redundant staff were doing previously?

 

[Chester1]

Why make some staff redundant, only to recruit and train new staff a couple of years down the line to effectively take over the job the redundant staff were doing previously?

To impose standardised pay and conditions that are open to public scrutiny. Now that the railway system has effectively been nationalised they should have the same scrutiny as the rest of the public sector. I suspect a lot would moan but sign their new contract, only a small % would choose redundancy. It would appeal to people relatively close to retirement who have avoided too many financial commitments. Most non specialist staff frankly haven't got a hope of getting similar pay outside the railways and wouldn't have a real choice. I am not advocating significant changes, just enough to remove the railways from the bubble they have existed in for the last 25 years.

 

[theironroad]

Like that is a normal public sector job...

Whether its pleasent or not the reality of the situation is that railway staff are expendable in a situation were passenger numbers have collasped and are unlikely to return to 2019 levels for years. If half of staff took redundancy rather than accepted new contracts then there would be sufficient staff to run enough services to meet demand until new staff could be trained over the course of 1-2 years.

There is a small section of railway staff who are very proud of the fact that unions have managed to force above inflation pay increases repeatedly for a generation and that they earn much more than the average person. They haven't left themselves in a good position. If the government announced standardised pay grades based on average of what individual TOCs pay and then imposed 7 day contracts, I doubt there would be much public support when people saw the pay levels staff decided to strike over.

50% of staff to be made redundant and there would be enough to run the service?

Either you envisage next to no train service running or whatever part of the railway you work in is very over staffed.

Many parts of the railway relied on overtime before hand and while overtime can be cut back , mass redundancies would lead to mass cancellations of an already skeleton service.

A skeleton service where people have to be crammed back in like either loosely packed or tightly packed sardines isn't going to encourage people back to rail.

Tbh, the peaks in many places were extremely overcrowded in 2019 and I'm not sure anyone wants to get back to that as the capacity wasn't there to meet demand.

 

[vikingdriver]

50% of staff to be made redundant and there would be enough to run the service?

Either you envisage next to no train service running or whatever part of the railway you work in is very over staffed.

Many parts of the railway relied on overtime before hand and while overtime can be cut back , mass redundancies would lead to mass cancellations of an already skeleton service.

A skeleton service where people have to be crammed back in like either loosely packed or tightly packed sardines isn't going to encourage people back to rail.

Tbh, the peaks in many places were extremely overcrowded in 2019 and I'm not sure anyone wants to get back to that as the capacity wasn't there to meet demand.

Even with our thinned out service we still have people working overtime!

 

[theironroad]

Even with our thinned out service we still have people working overtime!

We did during first lockdown and as services increased, couldn't even cover all the work with overtime, but since this lockdown started, it's eased up a bit and less overtime.

 

[PG]

Yes by job type, broadly. For example all drivers were on the same Ts and Cs (broadly), although I suspect there were differences in rostering arrangements. All signallers were on the same Ts and Cs - and still are!

Thanks @Bald Rick , handy to know these things as one day no one from that era will be working on the railway.

 

[LAX54]

50% of staff to be made redundant and there would be enough to run the service?

Either you envisage next to no train service running or whatever part of the railway you work in is very over staffed.

Many parts of the railway relied on overtime before hand and while overtime can be cut back , mass redundancies would lead to mass cancellations of an already skeleton service.

A skeleton service where people have to be crammed back in like either loosely packed or tightly packed sardines isn't going to encourage people back to rail.

Tbh, the peaks in many places were extremely overcrowded in 2019 and I'm not sure anyone wants to get back to that as the capacity wasn't there to meet demand.

If you got rid of 50% of NR staff, the system would stop overnight ! even 10% would be risking line closures within weeks.
(Back in October/November, 1 Signaller (one) went sick, think it over North London somewehere, result line closed for some 4 hours, services cancelled)

and during the lockdowns at our location, we did run short, and gave up breaks to keep the job going, and that was with a full staff complement.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Grant Shapps on Transport Committee yesterday made the point that govt have provided massive support to keep the industry intact and he was more interested in protecting all the jobs in the industry than making pay rises.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/20fceb87-bc67-4158-98db-dbf8d131e00a starts around 10.45

Hes very complimentary on what staff have done to keep system going and feels that they will accept the consequences of pandemic.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not sure it's especially helpful to start down the road of "oh well this job get's paid that much so clearly this railway job is overpaid", "yes well this other job get's paid this other amount so actually this railway job is in fact perfectly reasonably paid", etc etc etc. So I'm going to ask that we leave such comparisons and accusations here please. It only even ends up leaving a sour taste in the mouth and bad feelings all around.

 

[theironroad]

Grant Shapps on Transport Committee yesterday made the point that govt have provided massive support to keep the industry intact and he was more interested in protecting all the jobs in the industry than making pay rises.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/20fceb87-bc67-4158-98db-dbf8d131e00a starts around 10.45

Hes very complimentary on what staff have done to keep system going and feels that they will accept the consequences of pandemic.

Thanks for the link.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2021 ==

From an article in today's Rail Business, picking up on the SoS comments yesterday etc.

Pay freeze looms as rail staff declared public sector employees

4 February 2021

UK: Industry speculation regarding a pay freeze for railway staff was confirmed when Secretary of State for Transport Grant Shapps spoke to the Transport Select Committee on February 3.

‘There will need to be pay freezes outside of things like healthcare, and I think most people understand why, given people aren’t actually using out rail system at the moment’, Shapps said. ‘Protecting jobs and employment in rail is frankly higher on my agenda right now than pay rises this year.’

Industry sources confirm that DfT has written to passenger operators to clarify its decision to treat railway staff as ‘public sector employees’ and therefore subject to a pay freeze, unless they are earning below £24 000 where a small increase previously announced by the Chancellor will be awarded.

Rail Business UK understands that the minister has spoken directly to the general secretaries of the main rail unions to inform them, and the TOCs, that any pay deals under discussion when the emergency measures were introduced are to be ‘paused’ unless they can be delivered purely by productivity gains.

As one insider explained, ‘the statement from DfT is that there is no money to fund awards and it wants TOCs to do any productivity deals. RMT has suggested that it may seek a mandate for co-ordinated general action across industry, but as nobody has been furloughed and nobody has lost their job then to suddenly to go on strike when there is almost nobody travelling anyway would mean that they are unlikely to win public sympathy.’

The government has, however, indicated that any multi-year deals agreed before the pandemic will be honoured.

Another insider commented that ‘UK plc has got to recover from this pandemic and the rail industry has got to play its part; it is difficult, but there are a lot of people in frontline services that could say, “I’ve been at the frontline I deserve a pay award”.

‘We’ve tried to look after everybody as much as we possibly can and there has to be a recognition of the situation the country and the economy is in. What we’ve been asked to do is play our part; I fully get where the trade unions are but they’ve got jobs, they are on decent money and are on decent terms and conditions.’

Rail Business UK understands that at General Secretary level there is an acceptance of the situation, and a belief that union members may agree that this is not the time to protest.

A proposal to take strike action at ScotRail was rejected by members and discussions between railway staff on social media indicate that a similar view may be taken at other operators.

However, with elections for senior union roles looming it is noticeable that some candidates hold more hard line views, and are already talking about the more robust response that they feel members should take.

One industry leader told Rail Business UK that ‘if the unions had some sense, and realise that they’re not going to win either on public opinion or governmentally, it would be a fantastic opportunity for one of the general secretaries to do something completely out of character and say “we absolutely understand why this position is being taken, our country has been through a hell of a lot in the last year, railway workers stand united and in support of getting the industry back on its feet; we absolutely respect this position”; it would be amazing if that happened.’

Meanwhile, sources across the rail industry report that it will be some time before staff numbers are restored; as well as staff sick with Covid-19 or self-isolating there are regular reports of lives being lost to the virus.

Training and recruitment is significantly reduced and this will take time to resolve; the knowledge that a 100% timetable will not be restored for months or even years will give the industry time to recover. It is expected that a 75% to 80% timetable will be all that can be resourced in the medium term.

Looking forward, there is concern that DfT emphasis on ‘efficiencies’, such as more driver-only operation, can only go so far without costly new technology being deployed as well as the possibility of industrial action which could easily disrupt a fragile recovery.

Many industry leaders agree that this thinking by DfT has come too late, and that the government missed an opportunity to make significant changes to working practices early in the pandemic when promises of guaranteed jobs and salary protection could have been linked to changes in terms and conditions.

 

[LowLevel]

Assuming all frontline staff are on comparatively good terms is also a misnomer.

For example the staff in TPE uniforms dispatching trains at Manchester Piccadilly actually work for Carlisle Support Services and do 12 hour shifts for £9.40 an hour, not a huge amount more than minimum wage.

They're not allowed to go to the toilet and leave their specified location without asking a team leader and I've seen them running from the low number platforms to 14 and back again to dispatch trains when they've been short handed.

Considering TPE is trying to reinvent itself as an Intercity operator the way they treat these staff who have to work alongside properly employed colleagues from Avanti and Northern is rubbish.

 

[PG]

For example the staff in TPE uniforms dispatching trains at Manchester Piccadilly actually work for Carlisle Support Services and do 12 hour shifts for £9.40 an hour, not a huge amount more than minimum wage.

It would be a good time, now, to take all these headcount reduction dodge roles back properly but somehow I think I'm more likely to see pigs fly than that happen

 

[Leo555]

It looks from the outside to similar as to what has happened in the NHS with Sodexo etc ... presumably industrial action is less effective when your employer isn't the train operating company?

 

[Carlisle]

It looks from the outside to similar as to what has happened in the NHS with Sodexo etc ... presumably industrial action is less effective when your employer isn't the train operating company?

Wasn’t taking back ‘in house’, many of those outsourced roles discussed above, one of the key commitments of Labour’s 2019 election manifesto?, but for whatever reasons wasn’t enough of a vote winner given their scale of defeat .

 

[Mintona]

Even with our thinned out service we still have people working overtime!

As much overtime as we want still at our place too. Still enough staff off sick and isolating as per the app that it is a scramble to cover the service each day.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Assuming all frontline staff are on comparatively good terms is also a misnomer.

For example the staff in TPE uniforms dispatching trains at Manchester Piccadilly actually work for Carlisle Support Services and do 12 hour shifts for £9.40 an hour, not a huge amount more than minimum wage.

They're not allowed to go to the toilet and leave their specified location without asking a team leader and I've seen them running from the low number platforms to 14 and back again to dispatch trains when they've been short handed.

Considering TPE is trying to reinvent itself as an Intercity operator the way they treat these staff who have to work alongside properly employed colleagues from Avanti and Northern is rubbish.

Same at Leeds. But those at York are directly employed.

As much overtime as we want still at our place too. Still enough staff off sick and isolating as per the app that it is a scramble to cover the service each day.

Ditto at my TOC but only really for Drivers. Looking at the daily appearance sheets shows plenty of Drivers working overtime (rest day working). There are also a handful of spares each day too but normally at the opposite shift to where the overtime is! Most of this does seem to be due to huge numbers of trainees in the roster, which should have course all been qualified by now, and also other drivers being released to do Instructor duties.

Guards doing rest days on Sundays still seems quite common but that is due to Sundays being outside the working week so there are no spares, nor has there been such a dramatic reduction in the timetable on Sundays so you still need similar or the same number of staff as normal.

 

[Kite159]

It would be a good time, now, to take all these headcount reduction dodge roles back properly but somehow I think I'm more likely to see pigs fly than that happen

Would be a good time to look at the situation at some big stations to look into only having one team for station dispatchers, similar to Birmingham New Street where I believe they are all employed by Network Rail and trained to dispatch everything, rather having a group for one TOC, another group for another TOC and a 3rd group etc.

 

[JonathanH]

Would be a good time to look at the situation at some big stations to look into only having one team for station dispatchers, similar to Birmingham New Street where I believe they are all employed by Network Rail and trained to dispatch everything, rather having a group for one TOC, another group for another TOC and a 3rd group etc.

It would be an interesting question as to whether the dispatch staff directly employed by TOCs would be on better terms and conditions with the TOC or transferring to Network Rail. (I assume that terms are worse with an agency regardless.)

 

[theironroad]

Network rail staff generally don't get any travel facilities unless there's a local agreement/alliance in place.