RMT members overwhelmingly back further strike action

[Philip]

There’s literally a whole section in the offer that relates to station staff. Depending on what TOC you work for, there are a lot of changes the RDG is trying to implement…and not for the better.

That's why I say people have to compromise - in these financially constrained times if people want a decent pay rise then they have to be prepared to accept changes to T&Cs and this includes the railway. Other industries have T&C changes forced on them even without a pay rise.

 

[Starmill]

Now the government could just force through what they want because of the stubborn nature of the RMT and some of the industry who aren't prepared to accept any compromise.

To be fair, I don't think anyone who cast a vote in favour of further industrial action could be ignorant of the risks of doing so at this stage. They're risks that members at Unite, TSSA, Prospect and all of the various others didn't want to take, but RMT and Aslef clearly do, as is their right.

 

[ComUtoR]

The RMT are not really interested in the future of dispatchers, the ticket office

I thought the RMT had been very vocal about the future of ticket offices ?

 

[winks]

That's why I say people have to compromise - in these financially constrained times if people want a decent pay rise then they have to be prepared to accept changes to T&Cs and this includes the railway. Other industries have T&C changes forced on them even without a pay rise.

There is some truth in this. I was surprised to learn some TOCS still offer BR grades to new starters - with all the rates / OT etc at the old rate “unreformed” as they put it.

This would have gone in any other industry, given that privatisation happened 25 years ago!

The RMT are determined to maintain everything by the looks of things.

 

[Philip]

I do appreciate the issue for traincrew about the flexible working rosters and how this will affect their quality of life, but rather than rejecting the deal outright, why could the RMT not have identified this as a point of concern that they weren't prepared to accept but stated that they accepted the other areas of the changes? I feel the government would have cooperated over this issue and altered this area of the proposal to make it more reasonable for the traincrew.

 

[KM1991]

There is some truth in this. I was surprised to learn some TOCS still offer BR grades to new starters - with all the rates / OT etc at the old rate “unreformed” as they put it.

This would have gone in any other industry, given that privatisation happened 25 years ago!

The RMT are determined to maintain everything by the looks of things.

Why shouldn’t they? Do you promote 2 tier wages for the same roles? Do you want everyone to work for a flat rate irrespective of the shift time?

 

[JonathanH]

I feel the government would have cooperated over this issue and altered this area of the proposal to make it more reasonable for the traincrew.

It is quite clear that there is not going to be any back down or cooperation on any issue though, so isn't that just wishful thinking?

 

[winks]

Why shouldn’t they? Do you promote 2 tier wages for the same roles? Do you want everyone to work for a flat rate irrespective of the shift time?

Not two tier wages as I believe that to be unfair. But the grading on the railway is hideously complicated with different TOCS using different Payscales etc etc.

 

[devon_belle]

That's why I say people have to compromise - in these financially constrained times if people want a decent pay rise then they have to be prepared to accept changes to T&Cs and this includes the railway. Other industries have T&C changes forced on them even without a pay rise.

Sounds like a race to the bottom.

 

[Mainsideman]

Yes but it is not fair that station, retail, cleaning and other staff are being strung along with these strikes when they are not helping our own role. The RMT are not really interested in the future of dispatchers, the ticket office and cleaners; they are focused on the role of the guard and specifically DOO, so why should the rest of us be involved or 'expected' to strike at all?

Doo has been dropped and one whole section of the deal is station grades!

 

[Starmill]

I didn't say it was, but the government has shown it isn't going to move position on the basis of occasional strikes. This is essentially stalemate with the RMT an underdog in the fight.

The government probably are going to move their position eventually though. They directed the relevant TOCs to begin the change consultations before stopping them pending this offer.

 

[Philip]

Doo has been dropped and one whole section of the deal is station grades!

Just about everyone I have spoken to within the station side of things were prepared to accept the deal and thought it was fairly reasonable.

 

[winks]

I’m pretty sure the basic min. for the new CSA multiskilled role is £24k and then rises.

I know of Gateline staff that earn £21k basic.

 

[Starmill]

Why shouldn’t they? Do you promote 2 tier wages for the same roles? Do you want everyone to work for a flat rate irrespective of the shift time?

Aslef and RMT have agreed changes to conditions time and again, for pretty much the whole of that 25 year period. There's no way that the true negotiating position is no changes to conditions whatsoever, no matter what.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==

Sounds like a race to the bottom.

This sounds like bare cynicism to me. It's very hard to believe there's no change to conditions which would lower costs and which members would be able to live with, in exchange for the pay award.

 

[waytogo]

Sure I’m not the only one thinking enough is enough. I think certainly at my TOC if that deal was put out to a vote it would have gone through

 

[nw1]

I don't support strike action, but I do have some sympathy with rail workers defending their conditions.

As a passenger, I also have zero faith in this Government acting for me either, based on their record of cuts and withdrawing rolling stock without replacement, therefore I intend to make my point at the ballot box when the opportunity arises.

Today?

Not a general election, true, but voting against the Tories today will send a clear message to the government.

 

[ARIC]

Sure I’m not the only one thinking enough is enough. I think certainly at my TOC if that deal was put out to a vote it would have gone through

Perhaps at your TOC, the T&C changes wouldn't be as punishing as they are for others. It'd be nice to think that the concept of solidarity with workers extended beyond just mates in the messroom.

This is the problem with these industry-wide negotiations, it pits rail worker against rail worker, we saw it with Network Rail as well, a perfect result for the Tories.

 

[yorksrob]

Today?

Not a general election, true, but voting against the Tories today will send a clear message to the government.

No, I will miss today's election due to being away.

I will certainly be participating in the GE though.

 

[nw1]

No, I will miss today's election due to being away.

I will certainly be participating in the GE though.

Ah ok - oh well, hopefully not long to go until the GE.

We got three votes tonight for three councillors, which is unusual. All three were used appropriately

 

[whoosh]

There is some truth in this. I was surprised to learn some TOCS still offer BR grades to new starters - with all the rates / OT etc at the old rate “unreformed” as they put it.

This would have gone in any other industry, given that privatisation happened 25 years ago!

The RMT are determined to maintain everything by the looks of things.

GNER were the only TOC to put the work in and negotiate restructure of all grades. Everyone had Sundays put in the working week. All allowances integrated into a new rate of pay.

Whilst other TOCs had various restructures for various roles, none were as thorough as GNER.

Making Sundays part of the working week for traincrew and station staff, meant more staff were required as a Sunday wasn't overtime anymore.
No other TOC fancied such an investment in headcount increase.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Sure I’m not the only one thinking enough is enough. I think certainly at my TOC if that deal was put out to a vote it would have gone through

They why has your TOC voted to strike? Unless I've missed something, all TOCs met the minimum votes and all have voted for strike action, no?

 

[Topological]

Today?

Not a general election, true, but voting against the Tories today will send a clear message to the government.

But will it though? Will the government really spend any time thinking about the results in the local elections? As a government that have been in for 13 years they are certain to get a pasting so will some (minimal) votes cast over the rail issue really stand out?

There is a lot of thought that waiting for Labour will be the answer. However, I really cannot see it. As in 1997 the new Labour government will prioritise some headline wins and seek to show that it is economically competent in order to keep the city on side. Sadly, more money for the railways will be a long way down the list, especially at a time when the pay offer will already be in line with what other professions have received.

I almost think the Conservatives will play the same tactic that was played over Brexit. That is show that when Labour gets power it does not listen to the grass roots (see Corbyn and Momentum v New Labour) and then send other agents (UKIP in that case) in to undermine Labour support. Scorching the earth on the railways seems like one way to achieve that.

This is now a very sad race to the bottom at a time when the railways should be competing for a place in the new lower carbon future.

 

[winks]

The results are pretty clear cut and must be seen as a confirmation in the RMTs position to reject the RDG offer. The strength of feeling seems unresolved on the train operating companies. Alot of Unions would give their right arm for the turnout / YES vote on continuing strike action which RMT has achieved.

The issue now is how the hell does this get resolved going forward? Will the govt use the so-called reserved powers of the Secretary of State to dismiss all staff and re-employ them on new contracts ?

 

[Snow1964]

Today?

Not a general election, true, but voting against the Tories today will send a clear message to the government.

Not an election everywhere, and the number of councillors doesn't really affect how Government ministers set policy. They will probably ignore the local election result in same way they will ignore the RMT ballot result. For clarity by ignore, I mean will just carry on with no changes.

Sadly the RMT strike threats are now pointless and hollow, even doing a 1 or 2 day strike just inconveniences people and looses a few more customers that ultimately pay the wages. Hasn't changed Government policy in over a year, so probably won't for at least another year if RMT keeps repeating same short strikes for another year.

You do wonder about RMT executive, had lots of strikes last year, didn't achieve their objective, even though it worked 50 years ago, so they carry on, having not spotted it doesn't work anymore.

 

[Buffer stop]

That's why I say people have to compromise - in these financially constrained times if people want a decent pay rise then they have to be prepared to accept changes to T&Cs and this includes the railway. Other industries have T&C changes forced on them even without a pay rise.

Why?

 

[CyrusWuff]

And here's the response from Rail Delivery Group: https://media.raildeliverygroup.com/news/rail-delivery-group-responds-to-the-latest-rmt-ballot

A spokesperson for the Rail Delivery Group, said: "While the outcome of the ballot is disappointing, sadly it is also unsurprising during an on-going dispute such as this. The vote that really matters is for the deal on the table developed in conjunction with RMT negotiators but then subsequently rejected out of hand in unflattering terms by their executive committee.

"The RMT membership would be forgiven for wondering why they are only ever offered a vote to extend this dispute and a never vote to end it. We can only assume that the executive committee is fixed on continuing this dispute for its own reasons, despite the damage is causing to an industry still being subsidised up to £175 million a month extra post covid, to our passengers' lives and to Britain's reputation for hosting high profile events like Eurovision.

"Instead of continuing to hold the country to ransom, we call on the RMT executive to quickly think again and put the deal - which offers job security guarantees and a pay rise of up to 13% - out to a democratic vote so that members can finally have their say."

 

[footprints]

The results are pretty clear cut and must be seen as a confirmation in the RMTs position to reject the RDG offer.

It can hardly be a ringing endorsement of the RMT's rejection of the RDG offer when the ballot opened on 6 April and the RDG offer was only rejected on 27 April. Members wanting to give the union leverage in negotiations isn't mutually exclusive from hoping that the union might put an offer that their own negotiators have agreed to a vote of the membership.

 

[ARIC]

And here's the response from Rail Delivery Group: https://media.raildeliverygroup.com/news/rail-delivery-group-responds-to-the-latest-rmt-ballot

The RDG are well aware that we were tantalisingly close to a referendum on the deal, until it was clarified the deal included a clause that the dispute would have to be declared ended, before negotiations on T&C's could begin.

A 10 year old could tell you why that would be unacceptable to a union. Members aren't wondering why there isn't a referendum, the above clarification was explained to them multiple times through official channels.

 

[footprints]

The RDG are well aware that we were tantalisingly close to a referendum on the deal, until it was clarified the deal included a clause that the dispute would have to be declared ended, before negotiations on T&C's could begin.

A 10 year old could tell you why that would be unacceptable to a union. Members aren't wondering why there isn't a referendum, the above clarification was explained to them multiple times through official channels.

And yet the RMT's negotiators, including a member of their national executive committee, had agreed to it.

 

[ARIC]

And yet the RMT's negotiators, including a member of their national executive committee, had agreed to it.

Before the later clarification? Yes, of course.