RMT mandate renewed

[fishwomp]

Excerpt from: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/19/rail-union-in-england-votes-for-continued-strikes-in-jobs-pay-and-conditions-dispute

Rail workers at English train operating companies have voted overwhelming for another six months of potential strikes, the RMT union announced.

More than 20,000 union members were balloted across the 14 companies contracted to the Department for Transport, with 90% voting to give the union a continued mandate for strikes, on a 64% turnout.

Just posting to share the info, not to reopen the previous arguments..

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Excerpt from: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/19/rail-union-in-england-votes-for-continued-strikes-in-jobs-pay-and-conditions-dispute


Just posting to share the info, not to reopen the previous arguments..

This lot aren't bothered about what happens on the railways. Sadly Labour wont be much better but will endeavour to at least try and find a resolution but when they aske Reeves for the money she will say NO and im afraid the unions wont help a Labour government.

 

[Kite159]

64% turnout says a lot when over a third can't be bothered to vote.

Has there been any notable changes in the "numbers eligible to vote" between ballots?

 

[Purple Train]

64% turnout says a lot when over a third can't be bothered to vote.

No different to any Parliamentary by-election in a safe seat then...

What's the mandate situation with the ASLEF action?

 

[STINT47]

This new mandate and a fresh wave of strikes will definitely do the trick.

Come on comrades nothing has worked so far but let's keep doing the same thing over and over and they'll definitely give us what we want thus time.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I wonder if it's occurred to anyone that after trying the same trick for months and getting nowhere the refresh approaches may be needed? Speaking both as a passenger and a supporter of Rail staff generally, I honestly do think that going back to the drawing board might be a better option then continuing to bang the same old drum which is sounding a little less tuneful that it once was

 

[Exscrew]

I wonder if it's occurred to anyone that after trying the same trick for months and getting nowhere the refresh approaches may be needed? Speaking both as a passenger and a supporter of Rail staff generally, I honestly do think that going back to the drawing board might be a better option then continuing to bang the same old drum which is sounding a little less tuneful that it once was

And what's the other options can I ask?

 

[Vespa]

I dont see how another 6 months is going to make a difference, they've already lost more money than they would gain from any wage settlements, the strikes has faded into background noise for passengers who will work round the strikes by WFH or using their car/bus, in Liverpool most of the rail route is duplicated by bus, other cities will be similar, even during a strike a skeleton service is run.

It's not the 1970s anymore, if the Conservatives get back in next general election then what ?

I don't think ASLEF and RMT is going to win this battle this time round.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think ASLEF and RMT is going to win this battle this time round.

Maybe, but at least they haven't lost yet, with the unacceptable terms and conditions imposed. The ballot results at least continue to express the message that the destruction of terms and conditions isn't the price to pay for a paltry pay rise. Moreover, it won't be long before the 2024 pay rise is also part of the dispute.

 

[LowLevel]

This new mandate and a fresh wave of strikes will definitely do the trick.

Come on comrades nothing has worked so far but let's keep doing the same thing over and over and they'll definitely give us what we want thus time.

The T&C changes proposed are totally unacceptable so this will keep happening. Such is life, I think we're all just resigned to it now.

 

[Snow1964]

This new mandate and a fresh wave of strikes will definitely do the trick.

Come on comrades nothing has worked so far but let's keep doing the same thing over and over and they'll definitely give us what we want thus time.

And that appears to be policy, quoting from RMT press release

"This ringing endorsement of RMT's approach to the dispute now means we have industrial leverage to secure an improved offer from the RDG.

RMT secures fresh strike mandate in national dispute

Rail union RMT has smashed the anti trade union legal thresholds to secure another 6-month mandate for strike action in their long running national rail dispute.

www.rmt.org.uk

Has 't worked for 18 months, but apparently a repeat now suddenly got leverage.

 

[Blindtraveler]

If it was me at the top here with sole responsibility to try and break this deadlock I would be attempting the following


Fresh negotiating team on both sides, clear heads new brains different approach to the problem

Attempt to separate the issue of pay with the far bigger elephant in the room here which is the changes to terms and conditions. I somehow suspect that quite a few staff would have accepted the payoffer and just got on with it had this been the only issue


Nationwide staff consultation as to what was particularly disliked about the alteration to terms and conditions and suggestions from the boys and girls on the ground as to how things could be moved forward, tucked away somewhere in the industry there must be one or two people with thinking heads on their shoulders that realize that the status quo may not be maintainable but who have better solutions to how we make any alterations needed

Would a one-off tax-free bonus payment to all affected staff be sufficient to suspend further industrial action whilst these terms and conditions consultations and negotiations took place? If the t and c deadlock could be broken would the pay deadlock follow more easily? Some of the second parts of this post are very much questions to those who care to answer them and please bear in mind that I'm only a passenger who whilst understanding many of the issues doesn't pretend to be any kind of armchair expert and so go easy

 

[JonathanH]

If the t and c deadlock could be broken would the pay deadlock follow more easily?

No, because the government's position is that the only money available to clear the pay deadlock comes from breaking the T&C deadlock.

If the T&C changes were discarded, with the existing pay offer, it seems that might be acceptable, but the 2024 pay review isn't far away.

 

[Smidster]

On a purely analytical point of view I do think it is looking like some of the turnout / "yes" votes are starting to decrease.
For example this is for Northern:

	Eligible	Voted	Yes
Ballot 1	3,199	2,409 (75%)	2,145 89% of Voted 67% of all
Ballot 2	3,422	2,601 (76%)	2,440 94% of Voted 71% of all
Ballot 3	3,320	2,456 (74%)	2,264 92% of Voted 68% of all
Ballot 4	3,234	2,122 (66%)	1,915 (90% of Voted 59% of all)

And also looked at a couple of others (LNER , Cross Country) where turnout has slipped to varying degrees.

Unfortunately another hard six months coming up for those of us who rely on the service - especially as we can assume Christmas will be targeted again.

 

[Deafdoggie]

the 2024 pay review isn't far away.

This is likely to make little, or any, difference. The government are very happy for this to rumble on & on. My local major West Coast mainline station was closed for a couple of days in the last strike days and no trains at all. Yet there was no mention of it at all on the news, people just accept that the railways aren't 24/7 and plan accordingly.
The government's ldeal is that the strikes put people off trains more and more and they can make more and more cuts to the railways and save more and more money.
Sadly the RMT (and ASLEF) are playing into their hands.

 

[irish_rail]

To all those proclaiming this won't get anywhere, what exactly do you propose rail staff do? Just accept a 5th year of zero payrise and be happy about it? The government must realise they need to be reasonable here and provide a reasonable offer with a modest pay rise.

 

[Blindtraveler]

To all those proclaiming this won't get anywhere, what exactly do you propose rail staff do? Just accept a 5th year of zero payrise and be happy about it? The government must realise they need to be reasonable here and provide a reasonable offer with a modest pay rise.

Hense why I personally can't help wondering if we unbundle the two separate issues, the pay and the quite frankly disgusting terms and conditions and sought out one bit at a time

As others have also pointed out it would be worth sorting out 2024 and maybe even 2025 in the page settlement part of the dispute and get it approved and active and then look at the terms and conditions. This to me does seem like the only workable approach but I'm happy to be corrected

 

[Deafdoggie]

To all those proclaiming this won't get anywhere, what exactly do you propose rail staff do? Just accept a 5th year of zero payrise and be happy about it? The government must realise they need to be reasonable here and provide a reasonable offer with a modest pay rise.

The government view is that the railways cost too much. That's not going to change-even after a general election.
The cost of living is now easing, so wage rises will be expected to fall, those who got an offer accepted in the peak o the crises will doubtless play catch-up (or down) in the next round of pay rises.
Many people (most?) haven't had a payrise in even more years. There's really nothing special about rail staff in that regard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2023 ==

Hense why I personally can't help wondering if we unbundle the two separate issues, the pay and the quite frankly disgusting terms and conditions and sought out one bit at a time

The problem is, the unions want the pay sorted first. The government want the T&Cs sorted first

 

[footprints]

Hense why I personally can't help wondering if we unbundle the two separate issues, the pay and the quite frankly disgusting terms and conditions and sought out one bit at a time

As others have also pointed out it would be worth sorting out 2024 and maybe even 2025 in the page settlement part of the dispute and get it approved and active and then look at the terms and conditions. This to me does seem like the only workable approach but I'm happy to be corrected

To play devil's advocate, where is the incentive for the Government to do that? Rail staff get a pay rise and continue to strike over changes to terms and conditions.

 

[Deafdoggie]

To play devil's advocate, where is the incentive for the Government to do that? Rail staff get a pay rise and continue to strike over changes to terms and conditions.

Which, of course, is why the government want the T&Cs sorted first. But where is the union incentive? They've changed T&C and still got no pay rise!
Hence the two issues are linked.
To be fair, both sides understand this. Which is why, although they are agreeded they are linked, they are disagreed about it!

 

[Bantamzen]

On a purely analytical point of view I do think it is looking like some of the turnout / "yes" votes are starting to decrease.
For example this is for Northern:

	Eligible	Voted	Yes
Ballot 1	3,199	2,409 (75%)	2,145 89% of Voted 67% of all
Ballot 2	3,422	2,601 (76%)	2,440 94% of Voted 71% of all
Ballot 3	3,320	2,456 (74%)	2,264 92% of Voted 68% of all
Ballot 4	3,234	2,122 (66%)	1,915 (90% of Voted 59% of all)

And also looked at a couple of others (LNER , Cross Country) where turnout has slipped to varying degrees.

Unfortunately another hard six months coming up for those of us who rely on the service - especially as we can assume Christmas will be targeted again.

Classic strike fatigue there, and why dragging the dispute out comes with more & more risks. This will only serve to make the government dig in harder, especially with the Minimum Service Level Bill in play.

To all those proclaiming this won't get anywhere, what exactly do you propose rail staff do? Just accept a 5th year of zero payrise and be happy about it? The government must realise they need to be reasonable here and provide a reasonable offer with a modest pay rise.

You can see from the voting figures that support is starting to slip. You could collectively continue as is, but its clear the government isn't moving on this & all that will happen is that some members will continue to lose money. And the end of the day its your choice, but you're not winning this one until at least after the General Election.

 

[janb]

64% turnout says a lot when over a third can't be bothered to vote.

Has there been any notable changes in the "numbers eligible to vote" between ballots?

The general pattern in most TOCs has been that electorate rose then has been falling back to similar to starting point.

In terms of % of electorate support, some clear softening in Northern, LNER, Greater Anglia. Others have held steady, somewhere like Chiltern has hardened since start of dispute.

I have attached images comparing ballot figures.

 

[Kite159]

The general pattern in most TOCs has been that electorate rose then has been falling back to similar to starting point.

In terms of % of electorate support, some clear softening in Northern, LNER, Greater Anglia. Others have held steady, somewhere like Chiltern has hardened since start of dispute.

I have attached images comparing ballot figures.

Thanks for those, interesting with the stats.

I guess for the time being it's a waiting game for the next wave of strikes to try and encourage more talks

 

[dk1]

From what I witness and hear in the messroom, the momentum to continue is as strong as ever.

 

[fishwomp]

The general pattern in most TOCs has been that electorate rose then has been falling back to similar to starting point.

In terms of % of electorate support, some clear softening in Northern, LNER, Greater Anglia. Others have held steady, somewhere like Chiltern has hardened since start of dispute.

I have attached images comparing ballot figures.

Thanks for doing that homework -- saved me the effort.

I had to look up the rules as GTR have been lower than 50% of eligible voters for 3 ballots now.

Summary 2016 act requires: simple majority, and 50% turnout, and 40% of eligible voters must back action in an important public service (transport is one of the specified categories).

Quite a tricky rule that. If I am employee number 100 and a "no"... at company with 100 staff.

Scenario 1: 49 of other 99 employees voted, of which 40 vote to strike. If I vote "no", there will be a strike because the 50% turnout threshold is now able to be met. If I don't vote at all, the strike will fail for having insufficient turnout!

Scenario 2: 79 of 99 voted and 40 voted to strike, 39 voted not to strike. If I vote no there is no strike. If I don't vote then there will be a strike.

So, a "no" can actually cause a strike or stop a strike, abstaining can cause a strike or stop a strike , and obviously a yes can cause a strike!

 

[JonathanH]

especially as we can assume Christmas will be targeted again.

Every Saturday in December would seem like a very attractive target if it could be pulled off.

 

[janb]

From what I witness and hear in the messroom, the momentum to continue is as strong as ever.

In the messroom I'd expect that yes. RMT also represents other grades outside the messroom, and that's where support will be softening as at least some of those grades are potential "winners" from the proposed pay deal.

 

[fishwomp]

From what I witness and hear in the messroom, the momentum to continue is as strong as ever.

It's what people vote in the privacy of their own home that matters. That is what a ballot is about, not about the loudest voices in the mess.

There was a ballot, the results have been posted. Support has dropped (at almost every toc). This is different from your mess.

There is still a mandate. Another 6 months and it will need another vote, unless the one is different.

 

[dk1]

Every Saturday in December would seem like a very attractive target if it could be pulled off.

That is what I am expecting probably staggered with ASLEF.

 

[43096]

From what I witness and hear in the messroom, the momentum to continue is as strong as ever.

Which will be an echo chamber where the loudest tend to be the “yes” brigade. Bit different when it actually comes to a ballot.