RMT Extends Strike Action on Network Rail to Dec 24-27

[Bald Rick]

The unions have been pretty clear they would LIKE Sundays to be a part of the normal working week, but the daft don't want to know. No , they want to compel already fatigued rail staff to HAVE to work Sundays as overtime.

This is weapons grade b*****cks in every way. DfT very much want Sundays in the week.

to those mentioning being imposed; is that even a possibility? Surely that’s illegal?

Perfectly legal once consultation is exhausted.

Fire and rehire', although they'd be daft to do that; most railway staff are either able to retire now or have a previous career or qualification to fall back on.

also rubbish, sorry. Lots of career railwaymen and women a long way from retirement. I’m one of them.

 

[43066]

This is weapons grade b*****cks in every way. DfT very much want Sundays in the week.

Is it?

In which case why has committed Sundays been proposed to the RMT for TOCs, rather than Sundays being brought inside?!

Unless I’m missing something that is what the “offer” consists of.

 

[Towers]

Some do indeed seem about as active as south WCML guards, sadly.

This is of course as much down to poor management as it is lazy staff. With the current crop of modern ticket issuing kit, equipment for scanning QR code tickets and the requirement for on board staff to submit passenger counts, it is really very, very easy to keep tabs on how staff are performing and to identify those who are substandard. How that is then addressed is entirely down to their management!

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it?

In which case why has committed Sundays been proposed to the RMT for TOCs, rather than Sundays being brought inside?!

Unless I’m missing something that is what the “offer” consists of.

have You seen the proposal, or what RMT have published?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Indeed. But the DFt are not interested in making Sunday like the other days. The unions have been pretty clear they would LIKE Sundays to be a part of the normal working week, but the daft don't want to know. No , they want to compel already fatigued rail staff to HAVE to work Sundays as overtime. I for one know my limits and have no desire to work most Sundays on top of already working 5 days a week. Safety first and all that!

Quality of life too I guess?

 

[43066]

have You seen the proposal, or what RMT have published?

Fair question, quite honestly I’m not sure as there has been so much flying around.

I note the RDG have the following on their website:

Employers offer RMT a framework agreement to end national dispute and save Christmas | Rail Delivery Group News

News from Rail Delivery Group

media.raildeliverygroup.com

The proposed principles for reforming working practices include:

• To meet the growing demand for weekend leisure travel, particularly on Sundays, current voluntary working arrangements across the railways will be formalised

Which is somewhat ambiguous as to whether it’s referring to Sundays inside the working week, or committed.

Has any more detail than this been published to confirm RDG specifically want Sundays inside?

 

[pt_mad]

Ironically, I've met plenty of people on good wages or in positions of status or authority, who say how others should accept what they're offered and be grateful. Plenty on TV at the moment including some journalists. But I've yet to meet a single person on low pay who says they accept that's what they deserve, that they are grateful for what pay they do get, and admit that that is all their job is worth and that they would never hope for better terms over time.

Who would actually vote for an offer like the one RMT published in their own job where they had the alternative to campaign against with support amongst their colleagues?
I feel that most people in those shoes would wish to reject.

Those who say it's gone on too long, do they back up the government in leaving it since the first ballot closed in May to give a mandate for an opening offer containing their plans? They spent until September saying it was nothing to do with them and saying they didn't want to meet union barons. Did serious negotiation from the government's side even begin before that?
Remember the official line back in May that the action was 'premature'?

 

[class ep-09]

There's no shortage of applicants for railway jobs.

Who is going to train them , and how is it going to save money if fired , more experienced staff , refuse to sign new contracts?

 

[thelongestroad]

Some will not like to hear this, but it’s staff costs.

One thing I've noticed at my TOC since joining (some time ago) is the number of new manager roles over the years. Some of them (but not all) appear to have very spurious job titles and I'm not exactly sure what they bring to the game. There are a LOT that appear to be on a mission to justify their existence on Yammer recently.

 

[bramling]

There's no shortage of applicants for railway jobs.

I’m afraid this is increasingly becoming a misnomer.

In terms of numbers, yes there’s plenty of applicants. However in terms of having people successfully come out the other side of the recruitment process, which as you know for some roles is very long drawn-out, not so much.

Elements of the industry put many people off. The salary is attractive, but coming with that are negatives like shift work, and the railway’s form of shift work is quite extreme in some areas.

It really isn’t helpful to waste time on people who either don’t get through the training, or do get through it but then find they don’t want to work weekends, nights, Christmas, school holidays, or whatever. Certainly in my experience this is becoming an increasing issue with newer recruits (not saying it doesn’t exist with more established people either, though!).

If anything elements of the industry are probably going to need to become more not less competitive in terms of pay and conditions. If the industry is left scraping the proverbial barrel and ends up with, for example, people who can barely communicate in verbal form let alone written, things *will* happen. This is already proving a real issue in the London area now. Ever wondered why disruption seems to get increasingly worse handled, when access to technology should really mean the opposite should apply?!

The other very big issue, if staff expertise declines, how do you deliver training? Again, there’s already a problem with knowledge and expertise evaporating. My place had an incident not too long ago when someone had to be brought in from home just to move a defective train, as no one on shift knew what to do. Quite a sorry state of affairs really.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==

This is weapons grade b*****cks in every way. DfT very much want Sundays in the week.

DFT may want it, but are there sufficient resources to actually be able to do it? I very much want a Porsche, but I also quite like having money in the building society.

 

[Horizon22]

Actually yes, though through no fault of their own - the mobile operations manager turned up first. We had to wait for the off track person with a saw.

Of course the depot staff might have been off doing track work at the furthest edge of their area and of course Control (NR & TOC) have to mobilise the response.

Won’t get into the DOO discussion again but there certainly is a middle ground and isn’t totally black and white but that needs negotiation on both sides and firm, binding guarantees where appropriate. DFT / government banding around loose phrases that amount to “DOO everywhere, close all ticket offices” is as ridiculous as it is impractical.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==

This is weapons grade b*****cks in every way. DfT very much want Sundays in the week.

I’m sure they do, but have they realised yet they’ll have to pay more for it?! Impressions I’ve seen so far is they’re very much of the ‘have cake & eat it’ approach.

 

[childwallblues]

I heard the 24th to 27th RMT (mostly guards) one announced on LBC just now. What on earth is the point of that? Services stop early on 24th anyway (they'll just stop a bit earlier, but presumably not that early as ASLEF aren't striking and ECSs don't require guards), there's no service on 25th and 26th, and the morning of the 27th will annoy a few people but not that many. I expect it'll kibosh Merseyrail's Boxing Day service but that's lightly used.

There must be a particular reason to announce an almost totally ineffective strike, but I'm struggling to see what that would be.

Is the idea to make a point by saying they'll still strike, but by putting in a basically useless strike they're hinting that there's room for negotiation now a (bad) offer has been made?

No wonder members are complaining Instead of being paid for their bank holiday now they are not!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

No wonder members are complaining Instead of being paid for their bank holiday now they are not!

No such thing as a bank holiday on the railway, or certainly not at my TOC.

 

[philosopher]

This is weapons grade b*****cks in every way. DfT very much want Sundays in the week.




Perfectly legal once consultation is exhausted.




also rubbish, sorry. Lots of career railwaymen and women a long way from retirement. I’m one of them.

Given the railways lack staff as it is, a fire and rehire would just be plain daft. Some staff are almost certain not to reapply, so the staff issue would just get worse.

 

[Falcon1200]

The thing is, with an offer like was shown by the RMT, saying DOO on all passenger services

DFT / government banding around loose phrases that amount to “DOO everywhere, close all ticket offices” is as ridiculous as it is impractical.

The RMT statement quoted earlier said 'DOO on all operators', not all trains! And has the DfT/Government actually said they intend to have DOO operation everywhere?

 

[Evelynm]

Out of interest, why do passengers deserve such a service?

Many places still don’t function on a Sunday at all, meanwhile in some cases one can expect to pay some form of premium for “out of hours” service.

Including GP surgeries and most of the NHS

 

[A0]

What surprises me is why after nearly 30 years since privatisation, why the companies did not push for changes in working practices when times were better. When they were even more profitable, and customer growth was booming. Why no push for DOO in 2005? Probably because it did not suit their both online then.

Presumably because DOO also needs other investments such as cameras and monitors on platforms, possibly rolling stock modifications which may have been costly to implement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The RMT statement quoted earlier said 'DOO on all operators', not all trains! And has the DfT/Government actually said they intend to have DOO operation everywhere?

It would probably more sensibly say "objection to further DOO will be removed", not that the whole railway would change overnight. Some parts of it wouldn't ever. And there's always the possibility ASLEF would block it anyway.

 

[LowLevel]

Of course the depot staff might have been off doing track work at the furthest edge of their area and of course Control (NR & TOC) have to mobilise the response.

They could have been anywhere - I wasn't criticising the response - more making the point that I never like the argument of external assistance being available promptly because in my experience it's rarely the case, even if you happen to be stuck somewhere you'd assume would be easy to get to the law of sod guarantees the MOM, off track or whoever will be 10s of miles away.

Even if you hit someone on the line response times for anyone to attend, railway or emergency services, can be very long on our patch, especially in the evening.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

DFT may want it, but are there sufficient resources to actually be able to do it? I very much want a Porsche, but I also quite like having money in the building society.

Probably not at many operators but surely this is about how the railway needs to evolve from here. The railway is a 24/7/365 operation and T&Cs need to reflect that for anyone new who joins and existing staff need to be given a transition period of say 5 years or the option, with a significant financial inducement, to swap to a 24/7/365 contract. Mind you from what i read across these forums making Sundays part of teh working week will cost more on the bottom line which is why many operators never pushed for it so given the DfT can't afford a payrise how can they afford to run a fully resourced railway that doesn't rely upon OT or RDW.

 

[mpthomson]

This is patently not correct, private sector wages have increased in virtually all sectors of the economy by around 5-10% compared to last year, the exception being accommodation and food services where there has been on average no increase. Details can be found at https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...statisticsreferencetablenonseasonallyadjusted

Many sectors of the economy are still suffering skill shortages which has pushed up wage levels.

A good number of UK critical sector private employers haven't offered a pay rise at all this year, mine and all of our direct competitors included, and this in an area of known skills gaps and high agency use.

 

[43066]

DFT may want it, but are there sufficient resources to actually be able to do it? I very much want a Porsche, but I also quite like having money in the building society.

I’m sure they do, but have they realised yet they’ll have to pay more for it?! Impressions I’ve seen so far is they’re very much of the ‘have cake & eat it’ approach.

As per my response to @Bald Rick above, where is it explicitly clear that the RDG “deal”, means Sundays inside the week rather than some form of committed overtime? I strongly suspect it’s the latter.

The railway is a 24/7/365 operation and T&Cs need to reflect that for anyone new who joins

There is far less demand on Sundays, however. So not a particularly efficient use of staff to have Sundays inside rather than worked as overtime.

so given the DfT can't afford a payrise how can they afford to run a fully resourced railway that doesn't rely upon OT or RDW.

It’s pretty obvious that the railway will continue to rely on overtime for the same reason it always has done: it’s cheaper!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As per my response to @Bald Rick above, where is it explicitly clear that the RDG “deal”, means Sundays inside the week rather than some form of committed overtime? I strongly suspect it’s the latter.

It reads like the latter. I'd prefer, as a passenger, to see the former.

 

[43096]

It reads like the latter. I'd prefer, as a passenger, to see the former.

Are you prepared to pay higher fares to fund it, though?

 

[387star]

Morale must be so bad now... surely low morale compounds disruption

Morons in charge
As if any Union would accept no less than thirteen of these dire proposals

Absolutely disgraceful

 

[LowLevel]

It reads like the latter. I'd prefer, as a passenger, to see the former.

One of the issues with the usual shopping list is more flexible weekend working. At present I work 2 out of 3 Saturdays and about 1 in 3 Sundays. The usual request is to work more Saturdays as more people like them off so it's harder to cover leave and sickness, which seems illogical. The major benefit of our roster is a 5 day long weekend every 3 weeks, effectively paid for by working longer stretches the other weeks. That would get rid of that.

Committed Sundays provide a nice amount of overtime - they'd have to give me a several thousand pound payrise just to cover them if they wanted them in the week, otherwise I'd be on a significant pay cut.

They have their downsides though. No sick pay, and I can't guarantee being off on a Sunday until the week before, we can't use annual leave for them. No cover, I have to work.

My first railway job had a historic roster. We worked 8 out of 9 Fridays and Saturdays, having one weekend off every 9 weeks. This was horrendous. I used to swap my Fridays off to a Muslim colleague to give him a better chance of getting to the mosque every now and then for his holy day.

Finding a balance isn't easy.

 

[KM1991]

A good number of UK critical sector private employers haven't offered a pay rise at all this year, mine and all of our direct competitors included, and this in an area of known skills gaps and high agency use.

I mean…that has nothing to do with the railway and it’s unions though? Everyone should get a pay rise. At the end of the day, it’s pretty simple - railway workers didn’t cause inflation and they do not deserve a hit on their living standards, period. Most other public service working seem to be getting a 4-5% pay rise…without all the strings attached, and that’s the point. Railway staff have been offered a 4-5% pay rise, but with so many detrimental strings attached they might aswell form an orchestra.

 

[Towers]

It would probably more sensibly say "objection to further DOO will be removed", not that the whole railway would change overnight. Some parts of it wouldn't ever. And there's always the possibility ASLEF would block it anyway.

Is/was it not that Aslef's policy that they are satisfied with driver door operation provided a rules competent guard is still provided? If so then this seems a reasonable position for the RMT to adopt going forwards; it provides a sensible degree of movement to enable discussion and it allows the alleged time savings to be gained which those in favour have used as an explanation/excuse for wanting it for years now.

 

[Sleepy]

Is/was it not that Aslef's policy that they are satisfied with driver door operation provided a rules competent guard is still provided? If so then this seems a reasonable position for the RMT to adopt going forwards; it provides a sensible degree of movement to enable discussion and it allows the alleged time savings to be gained which those in favour have used as an explanation/excuse for wanting it for years now.

It may well be ASLEF's take on it however many Drivers are very much against it as the union discovered in some recent changes to door operations.

 

[43066]

It reads like the latter.

I agree. Seemingly so does the RMT!

Is/was it not that Aslef's policy that they are satisfied with driver door operation provided a rules competent guard is still provided?

Since when was that a general policy? I suspect that depends on what has been agreed locally.

It may well be ASLEF's take on it however many Drivers are very much against it as the union discovered in some recent changes to door operations.

I’d be happy with driver release, which is already agreed where I am, although we don’t do it on current stock (other than when ECS). Even driver close (under guard or dispatcher instructions) wouldn’t be an issue. The big one for me (and I suspect many others) is who takes the dispatch risk. To me that’s by far the biggest positive about having a guard versus full DOO.

Obviously there are many others eg having someone else there to deal with passcoms, and any other issues, but that is the major plus of a guard.

A trained guard not doing doors/dispatch would still be preferable to a GTR style OBS who (in my understanding) aren’t even PTS let alone rules trained, can’t reset passcoms so are essentially no more use than a trolly host, or just another passenger.