RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[northwichcat]

I expect that means the only service that will operate is a Central to SP non stop shuttle.

If Lime Street is closed I imagine a number of Wirral passengers will travel via Chester instead of via Liverpool.

 

[footprints]

If Lime Street is closed I imagine a number of Wirral passengers will travel via Chester instead of via Liverpool.

Lime Street lower level for Wirral Line trains will still be open.

 

[northwichcat]

Lime Street lower level for Wirral Line trains will still be open.

Yes but if there's no connecting trains to the likes of Manchester, Birmingham and London it might be easier to go to Chester to change instead of Lime St.

 

[185143]

Lime Street lower level for Wirral Line trains will still be open.

Not on strike days it isn't.

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently the strike dates are due to the RMT wanting a strike while the Conservative Party Conference is on, unless VTWC vote or local taxi companies vote to strike the strikes won't impact on the MPs travelling to the conference.

 

[AntoniC]

It also falls in the middle of the Lime St closure.

Those trains from Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Central are going to be packed !.

One wonders on those two days will Merseyrail run a shuttle from South Parkway to Central for the passengers affected by the Lime St closure, and a shuttle from Moorfields to Southport and nothing else.

I applaud the RMT for trying to cause maximum inconvenience, even though it will inconvenience me !

 

[XDM]

It also falls in the middle of the Lime St closure.



I applaud the RMT for trying to cause maximum inconvenience, even though it will inconvenience me !

Many of us condemn the RMT for trying to cause maximum inconvenience & wish management & non strikers well for trying to help the people, including the disabled, who have to travel on the Merseyrail strike days.

 

[Robertj21a]

Apparently the strike dates are due to the RMT wanting a strike while the Conservative Party Conference is on, unless VTWC vote or local taxi companies vote to strike the strikes won't impact on the MPs travelling to the conference.

.......so, a strike during the Conservative Party Conference - presumably so as to remind the Tories that a further tightening of strike laws etc might go down well with the electorate ?

:roll:

 

[godfreycomplex]

Based on my rail staff friends I'd say the complete opposite. A couple have even left the RMT because of it.

I've heard similar stories, and have had similar fleeting thoughts myself
However it's the only union for my grade, so I'm almost compelled to stay
It's easy to draw the conclusion that the main purpose of this rhetoric (along with "money to invest in foreign railways", I'd rather the profit from our railways went there than to fund Souter's gay bashing for example) is to alienate and frustrate ordinary union members

 

[Bletchleyite]

It also falls in the middle of the Lime St closure.

Those trains from Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Central are going to be packed !.

One wonders on those two days will Merseyrail run a shuttle from South Parkway to Central for the passengers affected by the Lime St closure, and a shuttle from Moorfields to Southport and nothing else.

Probably. Maybe not even to Southport as anyone going there could travel via Wigan.

They could probably just run a non-stop shuttle to Central every 5 minutes using say 3 units/crews and that is that - it'd actually be better for them and non-connecting passengers anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Lime Street is closed I imagine a number of Wirral passengers will travel via Chester instead of via Liverpool.

It's often best to do that anyway, e.g. if going to MKC where the Liverpool-Euston service does not stop. I was surprised initially it was Permitted but it is.

 

[prod_pep]

They could probably just run a non-stop shuttle to Central every 5 minutes using say 3 units/crews and that is that - it'd actually be better for them and non-connecting passengers anyway.

I don't see this happening. RTT shows the direct Central - South Parkway trains on Sundays during the closure as taking 9-10 minutes each way. You'd need at least 3-4 minutes at each end to turn around a 6 car train, so that's a round trip of at least 25 minutes.

The sensible thing would arguably be to run a 15 minute Central - South Parkway service using 2 trains. Remaining resources would surely have to be concentrated on the Southport line (by far the busiest Merseyrail route). I'd be very surprised to see the New Brighton line having any trains at all during the forthcoming strikes, and possibly nothing on the West Kirby line either.

 

[weastebusdepot]

The sensible thing would arguably be to run a 15 minute Central - South Parkway service using 2 trains. Remaining resources would surely have to be concentrated on the Southport line (by far the busiest Merseyrail route). I'd be very surprised to see the New Brighton line having any trains at all during the forthcoming strikes, and possibly nothing on the West Kirby line either.

The timetable implemented for recent weekday strikes has had two sets on James Street to Hooton, two sets on James Street to West Kirby and one set on James Street to New Brighton. All running semi-fast, missing out the stations with least footfall to keep the journey time from end to end just under half an hour.

 

[185143]

I don't see this happening. RTT shows the direct Central - South Parkway trains on Sundays during the closure as taking 9-10 minutes each way. You'd need at least 3-4 minutes at each end to turn around a 6 car train, so that's a round trip of at least 25 minutes.

The sensible thing would arguably be to run a 15 minute Central - South Parkway service using 2 trains. Remaining resources would surely have to be concentrated on the Southport line (by far the busiest Merseyrail route). I'd be very surprised to see the New Brighton line having any trains at all during the forthcoming strikes, and possibly nothing on the West Kirby line either.

During the Lime Street wall collapse a queueing system was set up on the bridge at LPY, and we were held up there until the train had arrived and emptied. I suspect this will be repeated. They are turning back at LPY vice Hunts Cross, giving a 12 minute turnaround under normal circumstances. I suspect about 8 minutes would be the minimum they could really get away with planning for.

 

[prod_pep]

The timetable implemented for recent weekday strikes has had two sets on James Street to Hooton, two sets on James Street to West Kirby and one set on James Street to New Brighton. All running semi-fast, missing out the stations with least footfall to keep the journey time from end to end just under half an hour.

It was a total of five sets on the Northern Line too: three on Southport - Liverpool and two on Maghull - Liverpool.

There will surely have to be a Liverpool South Parkway - Liverpool Central which takes away resources from elsewhere, so that's why I'd expect the New Brighton (and possibly West Kirby) lines to suffer. That is assuming, of course, the staff who are used in lieu of guards and drivers are trained on both Northern and Wirral Lines.

 

[rmt4ever]

Long live the RMT. A fine union !

 

[footprints]

Timetables announced for 3rd and 5th October.

https://www.merseyrail.org/strike-action/strike-timetables.aspx

 

[prod_pep]

As expected, no trains on the New Brighton line this time around. Maghull - Liverpool trains extended to Liverpool South Parkway alongside the existing Southport service to provide a 15 minute service.

 

[kw12]

Long live the RMT. A fine union !

Ha Ha

 

[Carlisle]

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-writes-to-merseyrail-owners-with-fair-proposal/
Both sides appear as far apart as ever in reaching a reasonable compromise to this dispute, given that as far as I can see this latest RMT peace offer merely suggests the various stakeholders engage in some financial chess in order to give the union everything its asking for .

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing is there isn't really a compromise, either there are guards or there aren't.

 

[Domeyhead]

The thing is there isn't really a compromise, either there are guards or there aren't.

If we could just talk about on train staff and stop getting so specific about the name badge that would be a start. There is still confusion amongst the public about whether the removal of the "guard" means there would only be one member of staff on the train - ie the driver.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we could just talk about on train staff and stop getting so specific about the name badge that would be a start. There is still confusion amongst the public about whether the removal of the "guard" means there would only be one member of staff on the train - ie the driver.

But it *is* that specific. The union wants guards - safety critical, in charge of the train, operating doors. There is no compromise there.

 

[Kite159]

But it *is* that specific. The union wants guards - safety critical, in charge of the train, operating doors. There is no compromise there.

The only compromise I could probably see the RMT agreeing to is "Driver Open, Guard Close" [similar to other operators]

Although the paymasters at Merseytravel don't want that as it will wreck their finances regarding purchasing the new trains.

 

[Carlisle]

The only compromise I could probably see the RMT agreeing to is "Driver Open, Guard Close".

That’s not really a compromise , it’s more a very small tweak to existing guard operation of all services, a true compromise might be something like Merseyrail agreeing to have a second member of staff on more services than they currently plan to., with training levels to be agreed with the unions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s not really a compromise , it’s more a very small tweak to existing guard operation of all services, a true compromise might be something like Merseyrail agreeing to have a second member of staff on more services than they currently plan to., with training levels to be agreed with the unions.

Indeed. Even OBSs aren't a compromise, as they still cost money.

The fundamental is:

1. Merseytravel want to cut costs by reducing staffing using an operational model they believe is safe. If there are two members of staff on each train, regardless of what their actual roles happen to be, the costs will not be cut significantly or at all.

2. The union does not wish jobs to be cut on the railway, nor for safety to be compromised (they believe the model is not safe). They insist on two members of staff per train.

A compromise is near impossible, because both of those are fundamentally opposite, binary positions.

My expectation of the outcome is therefore that the strikes will continue, and DOO will proceed. The staff can't afford to go all-out for months (which would be the only option likely to force Merseytravel to reconsider), while in the end once the DOO trains arrive the guards can strike all they like but are unnecessary and will simply be striking during a redundancy process.

On the latter, too much striking and most likely it will be a simple redundancy process with little else offered other than where legally or contractually required, and the bare minimum contractual redundancy pay paid. That is Merseyrail's "weapon".

 

[craigybagel]

Indeed. Even OBSs aren't a compromise, as they still cost money.

The fundamental is:

1. Merseytravel want to cut costs by reducing staffing using an operational model they believe is safe. If there are two members of staff on each train, regardless of what their actual roles happen to be, the costs will not be cut significantly or at all.

2. The union does not wish jobs to be cut on the railway, nor for safety to be compromised (they believe the model is not safe). They insist on two members of staff per train.

A compromise is near impossible, because both of those are fundamentally opposite, binary positions.

My expectation of the outcome is therefore that the strikes will continue, and DOO will proceed. The staff can't afford to go all-out for months (which would be the only option likely to force Merseytravel to reconsider), while in the end once the DOO trains arrive the guards can strike all they like but are unnecessary and will simply be striking during a redundancy process.

On the latter, too much striking and most likely it will be a simple redundancy process with little else offered other than where legally or contractually required, and the bare minimum contractual redundancy pay paid. That is Merseyrail's "weapon".

One wildcard you need to consider in all of this though - the drivers. If they don't accept DOO, then guards or not the trains aren't moving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One wildcard you need to consider in all of this though - the drivers. If they don't accept DOO, then guards or not the trains aren't moving.

True. But it's guards that are striking at present, not drivers.

Is the feeling of the drivers known?

 

[LowLevel]

True. But it's guards that are striking at present, not drivers.

Is the feeling of the drivers known?

I'd say it's fairly evident as not a single ASLEF driver has crossed the picket line since the strikes began as far as we know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say it's fairly evident as not a single ASLEF driver has crossed the picket line since the strikes began as far as we know.

Interesting. Were drivers balloted? If not, is that not illegal action?