RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[AlterEgo]

There is a difference between 'better utilise staff' and 'displace staff as the first step of a clear, published plan to get rid of them to save money'.

You do understand that, but are intentionally choosing not to acknowledge it, I presume?

Several DOO TOCs have a policy of natural wastage, that much is true. I am ambivalent about that, though I support better-staffed stations with visible staff walking the floor (and not behind glass wherever possible!). However I note there won't be any compulsory redundancies on Merseyrail.

 

[danbarnstall]

Several DOO TOCs have a policy of natural wastage, that much is true. I am ambivalent about that, though I support better-staffed stations with visible staff walking the floor (and not behind glass wherever possible!). However I note there won't be any compulsory redundancies on Merseyrail.

I have thought about applying for jobs on Merseyrail a few times but with all that is going on now I do not think I could land a steady role. For over a year every job that has appeared has been fixed term, so this has put me off. Obviously this is designed ensure permanent guards will move into these roles when new rolling stock comes in.

At the moment I can only assume Merseyrail have a stack of station staff and Guards on fixed term contracts which means further down the line the workforce will be cut not by redundancies but by this method.

 

[kw12]

I have thought about applying for jobs on Merseyrail a few times but with all that is going on now I do not think I could land a steady role. For over a year every job that has appeared has been fixed term, so this has put me off. Obviously this is designed ensure permanent guards will move into these roles when new rolling stock comes in.

At the moment I can only assume Merseyrail have a stack of station staff and Guards on fixed term contracts which means further down the line the workforce will be cut not by redundancies but by this method.

As stated at:

https://www.gov.uk/fixed-term-contracts/employees-rights

Anyone who’s worked continually for the same employer for 2 years or more has the same redundancy rights as a permanent employee.

 

[fowler9]

As stated at:

https://www.gov.uk/fixed-term-contracts/employees-rights

Ha ha, kind of explains why I got let go from my fixed term contract when I did a few years back.

 

[Ianigsy]

I suppose the other way of looking at it is that the fixed-term staff will form a pool of trained-up people who are well placed to apply for any permanent jobs that do come up and already have the skill set required. It also means that the cost of employing them is a known fixed cost over the three years and the company may be able to offer permanent positions further down the line depending on what the financial position turns out to be.

It's a little bit like the police using the PCSO role as an unofficial recruitment pathway- if you can't get in directly as a constable, you join as a PCSO and build up your skills and experience so you're in a good position to apply in the future and already have the inside knowledge of how the organisation functions.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

deleted

 

[Carlisle]

I suppose the other way of looking at it is that the fixed-term staff will form a pool of trained-up people who are well placed to apply for any permanent jobs that do come up and already have the skill set required. It also means that the cost of employing them is a known fixed cost over the three years and the company may be able to offer permanent positions further down the line depending on what the financial position turns out to be.

It's a little bit like the police using the PCSO role as an unofficial recruitment pathway- if you can't get in directly as a constable, you join as a PCSO and build up your skills and experience so you're in a good position to apply in the future and already have the inside knowledge of how the organisation functions.

Theoretically I'm sure that's how it should be , in reality I'm pretty certain most who've faced that scenario have found it more likely too be down to a combination of pot luck and who you know

 

[BestWestern]

Theoretically I'm sure that's how it should be , in reality I'm pretty certain most who've faced that scenario have found it more likely too be down to a combination of pot luck and who you know

Indeed. I think that sort of suspicion and uncertainty has played a part in building resolve for the ongoing action. Frankly, nobody trusts the management. After GTR, it,s hardly surprising. It's a different circumstance of course, but a certain TOC in the south has a process for medically displaced staff, whereby the individual has a set period of to apply for other roles. It is, of course, entirely at the discretion of the company whether or not they are successful in obtaining any of those jobs, and indeed perhaps whether they had any chance of doing so from the outset. The same TOC was at one time also known for finding itself at employment tribunals, and seemingly being happy to lose and pay due compensation in order to dispense with a staff member.

 

[danbarnstall]

[/QUOTE]The employer can demonstrate a "fair reason" for not renewing a contract if the job ceases to exist. It's the job role that is made redundant, regardless of the person doing that role. and the employer only has to pay the minimum statuary requirement, which after 2 years' service is likely to be pittance.

Hopefully with natural wastage, guards can retrain to become dirivers[/QUOTE]


How many drivers are there at Merseyrail? The media state there is 200 guards so I would guess a similar amount. Hard to see so many driving positions opening within 3 years.

When you look at the fixed term roles coming up for Merseyrail on their website for stations and booking offices you'd have to assume the bulk of Guards will end up in these type of roles?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

As stated at:

https://www.gov.uk/fixed-term-contracts/employees-rights

In here, it states that anyone who's worked continually for the same employer for 2 years or more has the same redundancy rights as a permanent employee

However, it may be that the employer can demonstrate a "fair reason" for not renewing a contract if the job ceases to exist. It's the job role that is made redundant, regardless of the person doing that role. and the employer only has to pay the minimum statuary requirement, which after 2 years' service is likely to be pittance.

Hopefully with natural wastage, guards can retrain to become drivers

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Originally posted by danbarnstall
.How many drivers are there at Merseyrail? The media state there is 200 guards so I would guess a similar amount. Hard to see so many driving positions opening within 3 years.

When you look at the fixed term roles coming up for Merseyrail on their website for stations and booking offices you'd have to assume the bulk of Guards will end up in these type of roles?[/QUOTE]

And although I have every sympathy for these guards, the TOC has offered them an alternative. Whether or not this is suitable alternative employment is open to debate - not saying that I agree with it.

 

[northwichcat]

How many drivers are there at Merseyrail? The media state there is 200 guards so I would guess a similar amount. Hard to see so many driving positions opening within 3 years.

When you look at the fixed term roles coming up for Merseyrail on their website for stations and booking offices you'd have to assume the bulk of Guards will end up in these type of roles?

I imagine some guard vacancies at other TOCs will be filled by people who are currently guards at Merseyrail. Others may retire before DOO comes in or just want to leave the rail industry altogether.

 

[furnessvale]

Perhaps this threat could be a very good reason for the Jockey Club to move the Grand National away from Aintree.

I doubt it. Less than one third of racegoers to the National travel by rail even when no-one is striking.

Far more likely that Aintree will beef up their road facilities to accommodate that 30% of traffic currently moving by rail and they can kiss goodbye to rail, permanently.

 

[Carlisle]

Indeed. I think that sort of suspicion and uncertainty has played a part in building resolve for the ongoing action. Frankly, nobody trusts the management. .

BR was fortunate when introducing most of its DOO schemes in the 1980s/90s, that the majority of displaced staff and their unions genuinely had a lot more trust/faith in the railway industry to look after them either with a reasonable alternative job offer retirement deal or whatever in a manner which simply doesn't exist today,

 

[HH]

How many drivers are there at Merseyrail? The media state there is 200 guards so I would guess a similar amount. Hard to see so many driving positions opening within 3 years.

Due to various factors (e.g. drivers are on a 4-day week) there would probably be rather more drivers than guards, maybe 300. Turnover somewhat depends on how often drivers might depart to better remunerated TOCs (e.g. VT), but 5% is not a bad estimate.

So you might see 15 vacancies a year. Of the 200 guards I'd bet that a fair few had already tried for driver roles and failed. Even given their insider knowledge the pass rate is quite low I understand. There might even be more driver positions come up than there are guards who could perform them. And that assumes they all want to be drivers; funny as it may seem, not all do.

 

[HH]

BR was fortunate when introducing most of its DOO schemes in the 1980s/90s, that the majority of displaced staff and their unions genuinely had a lot more trust/faith in the railway industry to look after them either with a reasonable alternative job offer retirement deal or whatever in a manner which simply doesn't exist today,

Some of that trust was written into the 'red book' T&Cs.

 

[trainophile]

Are Merseyrail having a trial run of DOO? I was waiting for someone at a M'rail station today, and noticed the guard stayed in the back cab while the driver put his head out of the window and checked the length of the platform (which luckily was straight), before the doors were shut. I don't know who actually pressed the button.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would seem odd. Sure it wasn't a second guard in the front offside cab?

 

[jamesst]

Are Merseyrail having a trial run of DOO? I was waiting for someone at a M'rail station today, and noticed the guard stayed in the back cab while the driver put his head out of the window and checked the length of the platform (which luckily was straight), before the doors were shut. I don't know who actually pressed the button.

The guard presses the button to close the doors,the driver has no way of doing so

 

[trainophile]

Ah, okay, just a false impression then. The driver definitely scanned the length of the platform, but maybe he was just getting a breath of fresh air!

 

[northwichcat]

I've seen drivers stick their heads of the windows on numerous occasions on services operated with guards.

 

[BestWestern]

Often their sad eyes and the forlorn look of "Please help, rescue me from this cab" is heartbreaking...

 

[gavin]

@PA

#Breaking Talks aimed at resolving a dispute over the role of guards on Merseyrail have "collapsed", threatening more strikes - RMT union

 

[WatcherZero]

RMT saying they offered to surrender the issue of who opens and closes doors and dispatches trains to an independent committee made up of Union, Company, Safety and Manufacturer if Merseyrail guaranteed a second safety critical member but this was refused.

This sounds like more ground potentially being given than in the other negotiations were door control has been inviolable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite rightly they refused. A second safety critical member of staff on all Merseyrail trains is not necessary. And having one would destroy the business case for the new fleet.

I'm sorry, but the guards will lose long-term. This will be like the Dockers. What they need to be negotiating for is not retention, but a fair policy of phasing out and redeployment that will ensure good redundancy payments where applicable, and alternative roles where applicable with no loss of pay.

Merseyrail is like LU (DOO), Metrolink (DOO), Newcastle Metro (DOO), German S-Bahnen and U-Bahnen (DOO)...it is not a mainline railway and the issues are not even similar.

 

[Carlisle]

RMT saying they offered to surrender the issue of who opens and closes doors and dispatches trains to an independent committee made up of Union, Company, Safety and Manufacturer if Merseyrail guaranteed a second safety critical member but this was refused.
.

Didn't they make a virtually identical offer to Southern during ACAS talks last summer, that was refused.? If so it doesn't appear on the surface anyway to be anything other than re hashing old ground .

 

[Robertj21a]

RMT saying they offered to surrender the issue of who opens and closes doors and dispatches trains to an independent committee made up of Union, Company, Safety and Manufacturer if Merseyrail guaranteed a second safety critical member but this was refused.

This sounds like more ground potentially being given than in the other negotiations were door control has been inviolable.

Surely, the idea of a second *safety critical* member of staff on Merseyrail was killed off a while ago ? Why are the RMT wasting valuable negotiating time just going over old ground. The time is to look forward, not longing for an era long past.

 

[urbophile]

They would be better campaigning for an expansion of the network, which would benefit many more people, improve the economy and of course provide many more jobs for RMT members.

 

[WatcherZero]

Didn't they make a virtually identical offer to Southern during ACAS talks last summer, that was refused.? If so it doesn't appear on the surface anyway to be anything other than re hashing old ground .

They offered to let driver open so long as guard still closed and dispatched.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are lots of things they would be better campaigning for. Just not what they are campaigning for.