RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Andrew32]

Can't be long till a strike is announced for the 28th or 29th given VTEC and northern are striking that weekend

Talks took place today so depends how they went

 

[Mintona]

At which point have the drivers accepted DOO(P)?

Until that happens, surely the guards must remain.

 

[northwichcat]

At which point have the drivers accepted DOO(P)?

Until that happens, surely the guards must remain.

DOO isn't set to happen for 3 years yet. The RMT just wanted to strike as soon as Merseytravel announced plans for DOO in 2020.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

DOO isn't set to happen for 3 years yet. The RMT just wanted to strike as soon as Merseytravel announced plans for DOO in 2020.

Have there been any other rail strikes called in historical time where the matter of contention is some years into the future?

 

[urbophile]

We have a good level of employment,

No we don't.

 

[Carlisle]

Have there been any other rail strikes called in historical time where the matter of contention is some years into the future?

I can only think of a period around 2003 when all TOCs were asked by the RMT to sign a declaration they wouldn't introduce any further DOO during the life of their franchise, those that didn't sign became in dispute with the union and faced a subsequent strike ballot, some strikes took place but eventually fizzled out when it became clear that only C2C actually had anything resembling firm proposals to implement DOO around that time

 

[kw12]

I can only think of a period around 2003 when all TOCs were asked by the RMT to sign a declaration they wouldn't introduce any further DOO during the life of their franchise, those that didn't sign became in dispute with the union and faced a subsequent strike ballot, some strikes took place but eventually fizzled out when it became clear that only C2C actually had anything resembling firm proposals to implement DOO around that time

This was mentioned in the following news article about a strike held on C2C in October 2001.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1605563.stm

Thursday, 18 October, 2001, 00:46 GMT 01:46 UK
Rail guards start one-day strike

A one-day strike by train guards is expected to disrupt rush-hour rail travel into London from Essex on the Southend and Tilbury lines on Thursday.
The strike follows the break down of talks between rail firm c2c and the Rail, Maritime and Transport Union (RMT) over the issue of driver-only trains.

The company said it will run 20 trains to London in the morning and evening peak periods, a reduction of 50%.

But it expects that 75% of commuters will be able to travel as usual, as some trains will be lengthened to 12 carriages to accommodate more people.

Talks collapsed and no discussions are planned

RMT assistant general secretary Bob Crow said: "c2c is now the only train-operating company in the country not to support our charter for train crew safety."

He said a key part of the charter was an end to the policy of extending driver-only operations.

"It seems they are not interested in solving the dispute. We offered them a moratorium (on the issue of driver-only operated trains) but they would not accept," said Mr Crow.

Months of inconvenience

The union is angry that guards no longer have responsibility for train service safety under changes to railway rules made in 1999.

...

c2c is the only train company not to reach a deal with the RMT over the role of guards.

The other 19 train operators reached agreement before the first of a series of strikes last June.

At the time C2C was having reliability problems with its first batch of class 357 emus (which were temporarily withdrawn in October 2001) and its second batch was on order. C2C finally replaced the last of its slam door trains in 2003 and DOO was rolled out the following year, starting with the line between Southend to Shoeburyness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No we don't.

Much better than many other countries.

 

[Dave1987]

Unless we've become a communist state, I don't want my government to 'ensure full employment' - it would increase inflation dramatically, to the detriment of most. We have a good level of employment, it needs to stay there.

Do we? The economy is on a knife edge currently. Inflation starting to creep towards 3%. Normally the BoE would increase interest rates to control inflation but they can't because wage growth is not keeping up. The Government has long said that the opposition would spend spend spend and cripple the economy, yet arguably they have built an economy that relies on consumer credit spending. Right at this moment with the uncertainty over the future of the country and the economy we should be protecting every single job we can.

 

[fowler9]

Given that we are one of the strongest economies in the world the most wealthy are going to have to accept a reduction in their wealth at some point or there will be a fight. We can't carry on taking people out of skilled jobs and putting them in lower paid ones and at the same time complain about people claiming benefits. To anyone in the wealthier percentage of the population who still think they need the same or more financially they should ask themselves one question, are they willing to put up with massive civil unrest to pay for it because that is what will happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given that we are one of the strongest economies in the world ......

But are we?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To anyone in the wealthier percentage of the population who still think they need the same or more financially they should ask themselves one question, are they willing to put up with massive civil unrest to pay for it because that is what will happen.

I think that it is up to a very strong Government to deal with such a scenario to which you allude. "Massive civil unrest" is something that has been seen in a number of countries since the end of the 1939-1945 conflict and I suppose in Britain, the situation of Northern Ireland from 1970 onwards where armed British troops were actively patrolling streets in Ulster is one such example.

 

[6Gman]

In that case, I look forward to the reintroduction of guards on London Underground.

It's all about risk appetite.

As has been pointed out many times LU is a very different beast from Merseyrail

 

[danbarnstall]

As has been pointed out many times LU is a very different beast from Merseyrail

No level crossings on the underground for a start! For those saying the risk of crossing collisions is small there was one on Merseyrail a few months ago.

 

[fowler9]

But are we?

5th by GDP. Someone in the UK is making money.

 

[fowler9]

I think that it is up to a very strong Government to deal with such a scenario to which you allude. "Massive civil unrest" is something that has been seen in a number of countries since the end of the 1939-1945 conflict and I suppose in Britain, the situation of Northern Ireland from 1970 onwards where armed British troops were actively patrolling streets in Ulster is one such example.

Would you want to see a very strong government having to deal with massive civil unrest in the UK. The unrest would not be occurring for no reason.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would you want to see a very strong government having to deal with massive civil unrest in the UK. The unrest would not be occurring for no reason.

Can you imagine Corbyn being a strong leader of Government in the scenario that I envisaged?

You say that the "unrest would not be occurring for no reason" but Governments have a responsibility to all its citizens. Do you remember the riots in England between 6th-10th August 2011 that took place after the shooting of Mark Duggan where it did not take long for the British criminal fraternity in large cities to co-ordinate violent criminal behaviour to take over from the originally held sentiments against the police forces after that shooting. I am unsure how Liverpool suffered, but I remember the very large Arndale Centre in Manchester city centre being attacked by a co-ordinated mob plus numerous instances of large establishments with "must-have" items being attacked.

 

[Dave1987]

Can you imagine Corbyn being a strong leader of Government in the scenario that I envisaged?

You say that the "unrest would not be occurring for no reason" but Governments have a responsibility to all its citizens. Do you remember the riots in England between 6th-10th August 2011 that took place after the shooting of Mark Duggan where it did not take long for the British criminal fraternity in large cities to co-ordinate violent criminal behaviour to take over from the originally held sentiments against the police forces after that shooting. I am unsure how Liverpool suffered, but I remember the very large Arndale Centre in Manchester city centre being attacked by a co-ordinated mob plus numerous instances of large establishments with "must-have" items being attacked.

Care to remind the current Government of this? They seem to have forgotten.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Care to remind the current Government of this? They seem to have forgotten.

I said ALL of its citizens, not just those Momentum-inspired ones who would have us all follow the Corbyn route to the imaginary left-wing version of "Socialist heaven", given half a chance. ...:roll::roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

As has been pointed out many times LU is a very different beast from Merseyrail

Hopefully you can appreciate how fatuous your analogies with the Bradford Fire and the Herald of Free Enterprise were, then.

 

[AlterEgo]

I said ALL of its citizens, not just those Momentum-inspired ones who would have us all follow the Corbyn route to the imaginary left-wing version of "Socialist heaven", given half a chance. ...:roll::roll:

Does everything really have to come back to Corbyn and Momentum, Paul? Really? Change the record.

 

[313103]

Could it be possible to this thread discussing the issues of Merseyrail DOO rather then momentum and government.

 

[fowler9]

Can you imagine Corbyn being a strong leader of Government in the scenario that I envisaged?

You say that the "unrest would not be occurring for no reason" but Governments have a responsibility to all its citizens. Do you remember the riots in England between 6th-10th August 2011 that took place after the shooting of Mark Duggan where it did not take long for the British criminal fraternity in large cities to co-ordinate violent criminal behaviour to take over from the originally held sentiments against the police forces after that shooting. I am unsure how Liverpool suffered, but I remember the very large Arndale Centre in Manchester city centre being attacked by a co-ordinated mob plus numerous instances of large establishments with "must-have" items being attacked.

Paul, Corbyn has nothing to do with this. I would say the government should be aiming to prevent massive civil uprisings, not causing them.

 

[fowler9]

Could it be possible to this thread discussing the issues of Merseyrail DOO rather then momentum and government.

Do you not think that discussing automating people out of jobs is very much part of the discussion of Merseyrail DOO? If not then it is very much a yes or no question. Should they be DOO or not. We could have a really short thread.

 

[Robertj21a]

Do you not think that discussing automating people out of jobs is very much part of the discussion of Merseyrail DOO? If not then it is very much a yes or no question. Should they be DOO or not. We could have a really short thread.

Life changes, we all have to move on from time to time whether we really like it or not. Most employees are well aware that their job may only be secure for a certain number of months, possibly a few years. That's not generally been the case on the railways so, understandably, they are probably more alarmed than most other people.

At least there's low unemployment and low inflation at present.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would say the government should be aiming to prevent massive civil uprisings, not causing them.

Fine, who will be those who will be co-ordinating these "massive civil uprisings" when they occur?

 

[6Gman]

Hopefully you can appreciate how fatuous your analogies with the Bradford Fire and the Herald of Free Enterprise were, then.

In your opinion.

 

[AlterEgo]

In your opinion.

If you think London Underground is further removed from the topic than a ship sinking or fire stewards, be my guest.

Point you made is that there's never no risk. Correct. Also that some industries have job roles ever-present to guard against events which occur less than once in ten years. Correct, but those industries are substantially different and come with a different risk profile.

The railway is moving away from that. It is all about risk appetite and cost efficiency. That's why guards won't return on LU (also a metro system, also mostly self contained, and with purpose built stock etc).

Embrace the change and think about how existing staff could be better utilised than guarding against an event which hasn't happened yet in 36.5 million passenger miles.

 

[BestWestern]

Embrace the change and think about how existing staff could be better utilised than guarding against an event which hasn't happened yet in 36.5 million passenger miles.

There is a difference between 'better utilise staff' and 'displace staff as the first step of a clear, published plan to get rid of them to save money'.

You do understand that, but are intentionally choosing not to acknowledge it, I presume?

 

[313103]

Do you not think that discussing automating people out of jobs is very much part of the discussion of Merseyrail DOO? If not then it is very much a yes or no question. Should they be DOO or not. We could have a really short thread.

Actually i do agree with you, but i am not allowed or permitted to discuss issues that are off topic, so for me to continue to discuss in this thread i can only comment on the Merseyrail DOO alone and not peripheral issues.

I will be against DOO because all i have seen in DOO schemes is a loss of jobs, which is exactly what will happen on Merseyrail some on here see that as being good.