RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[M28361M]

Merseyrail managed to run a few extra trains on top of the strike service, according to their Twitter page. Two extra services ran to Southport from Liverpool Central at 1823 and 1838.

Walked past St Michaels station at lunchtime yesterday and it was completely locked up although I thought I heard staff inside.

 

[danbarnstall]

The visible presence is probably down to the fact they don't do revenue, so they have time to be visible.

Crime is very fluid, and most low level crime takes place between 10am and 7pm. Then the drunks appear and a different problem comes with that.
A lot of it is down to perception, I have seen passengers effectively being stalked in order to be robbed, and they have been blissfully unaware of what was taking place.

I will never be able to convince those who don't want to be convinced, so I will go and enjoy the sunshine. Have a good un.

Half term tends to see large increases in both petty crime and passenger loading through the day. I live in Sefton but travel to the Wirral for work, Sefton and Wirral schools now have different half term dates to those in Liverpool so that problem is now staggered over a greater timeframe on the Merseyrail network.

Going back to the dispute I read on the Liverpool Echo website no ASLEF drivers crossed. If this is right it's going to be a struggle getting a deal through which satisfies them. Two recent major court cases involving Merseyrail Guards perhaps why they are reluctant?

 

[trainophile]

The visible presence is probably down to the fact they don't do revenue, so they have time to be visible.

Crime is very fluid, and most low level crime takes place between 10am and 7pm. Then the drunks appear and a different problem comes with that.
A lot of it is down to perception, I have seen passengers effectively being stalked in order to be robbed, and they have been blissfully unaware of what was taking place.

I will never be able to convince those who don't want to be convinced, so I will go and enjoy the sunshine. Have a good un.

How does this work then? Unlike most trains, people aren't going to leave their seats to go to the toilets (there aren't any) or trolley, or shop, so they will be with their possessions all the time, except if they stick a suitcase between the seat backs, and even then most people would try to keep an eye on it.

Do you mean stalked when they get off the train? To be robbed in the station? On the street? That's rather worrying if so.

 

[Robertj21a]

The Grand National service did indeed run annoyingly well, and I spoke to a few people outside Aintree whilst waiting (a very long time!) For a bus who tried to convince me the strike had been called off, as there were trains! Part of me wanted to see the event completely ruined, but I fear it would have cost a lot of public support. Another thing I noticed was several people unaware of the strike and/or assuming it was about pay. When the idea that the trains were being made DOO was mentioned-they were horrified and in full support of the strike.

I doubt that most of the travelling public are in the least bit bothered by whether it's DOO/DCO or anything else, let alone 'horrified'. It seems unlikely (but I'm happy to be corrected) that anyone can carefully, and accurately -talk to a member of the general public - describe the current arrangements - describe the proposed changes - answer any queries - and then sum up their views in much less that 5 minutes. So how many people received a suitably full explanation - rather than a one-sided view of the situation (from any point of view) ?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

How does this work then? Unlike most trains, people aren't going to leave their seats to go to the toilets (there aren't any) or trolley, or shop, so they will be with their possessions all the time, except if they stick a suitcase between the seat backs, and even then most people would try to keep an eye on it.

Do you mean stalked when they get off the train? To be robbed in the station? On the street? That's rather worrying if so.

Like I have said. Crime is very fluid.

People on trains carry a lot of valuable possessions like mobiles, lap tops, etc. One of the cleverest, or dumbest, crimes I ever heard about was someone snatching a bag and jumping off the train as the doors closed, luckily the train had a conductor who was on the platform, a chase through the local streets ensured, and some builders working nearby helped catch the object.
You'd be amazed at what goes on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

People are failing to see what the strike was called for. It was to create problems for management, and it worked.

Merseyside is a area of over four million people. Only 70,000 were at the national, and most of them came from outside. The rest of Merseyrail was shut down almost, just to keep the 70,000 happy. Try telling the rail users of the rest of Merseyside that the management operation was a success.

What Merseytravel cannot understand is the level of support from the area for the guards. It must be very annoying for them when all their propaganda falls of deaf ears.

The Grand National at Aintree is as much a nationally recognised single-day icon in sport as is the FA Cup Final at Wembley. Liverpool is very proud to host the Grand National.

Anyway, back to your point, do you think that Merseyrail will have a Damascene moment as a result of that one day action or not?

 

[northwichcat]

There's been numerous incidents of luggage theft on TPE services, especially since the 185s were introduced but even with guards and TPE calling at mainly staffed stations some people manage to get away with stolen luggage. Stations and trains are far too busy for one person to see everything.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

The Grand National at Aintree is as much a nationally recognised single-day icon in sport as is the FA Cup Final at Wembley. Liverpool is very proud to host the Grand National.

Anyway, back to your point, do you think that Merseyrail will have a Damascene moment as a result of that one day action or not?

Life will go on, the next strike will come, the ratchet will be turned some more.

Thing is, it's three years before any new trains arrive on Merseyside, that's another three Grand National awaiting.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

There's been numerous incidents of luggage theft on TPE services, especially since the 185s were introduced but even with guards and TPE calling at mainly staffed stations some people manage to get away with stolen luggage. Stations and trains are far too busy for one person to see everything.

Yes, I mean what you say is quite true, a guard cannot stop every theft. But from a passengers perspective, they want somebody to act at the point they discover the crime, even if that is just reporting it to the police. You are a shoulder to cry on if you like, and that can be a big thing, especially to the more vulnerable.

 

[trainophile]

There's been numerous incidents of luggage theft on TPE services, especially since the 185s were introduced but even with guards and TPE calling at mainly staffed stations some people manage to get away with stolen luggage. Stations and trains are far too busy for one person to see everything.

I can believe that, but on Merseyrail there's no end-of-coach luggage racks that are a distance from your seat, and you either have your stuff on the floor by your feet, on the overhead rack, between the seats or on your lap.

I have heard of theft by criminals hooking briefcases off the overhead racks unobserved by the rightful owner who is asleep, or nonchalantly rifling through them in situ. The majority of Merseyrail's passengers, at least off peak ones, seem to be pensioners, generally in couples, and speaking for myself if I saw something untoward going on I would shout out, as I'm sure most of these mature people would do. There's more honest Scousers than rogues!

 

[Dr Hoo]

From the point of view of this thread could it be said that the 'open' nature of the new Merseytravel wide-gangway stock, never operating in multiple, is a major benefit for passengers and (remaining) staff in terms of general security?
How often does the current guard of a six-car get to meaningfully patrol the front set?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Life will go on, the next strike will come, the ratchet will be turned some more.

Thing is, it's three years before any new trains arrive on Merseyside, that's another three Grand National awaiting.

Perhaps this threat could be a very good reason for the Jockey Club to move the Grand National away from Aintree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the point of view of this thread could it be said that the 'open' nature of the new Merseytravel wide-gangway stock, never operating in multiple, is a major benefit for passengers and (remaining) staff in terms of general security?

How often does the current guard of a six-car get to meaningfully patrol the front set?

They will not "never operate in multiple". The length and door positions are precisely selected to allow pairs.

 

[trainophile]

It's rather ironic that recently at many stations there is a repeated recorded announcement about security, the catch phrase being "see it, say it, sort it (or sorted?)". They are actively advising travellers to keep an eye out for anything suspicious, and notify "a member of train crew or the police".

I suppose the 61016 text number for BTP is the next best thing, but as we all know they may be 50 miles from where they are needed.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

The strangest case I had was a woman leaving a baby on board in it's pram. To this day I have no idea if it was deliberate or not, I had to wait at the next station for the police to come and retrieve the child.
If I had not been there, it could have been carried around all night long.

Then there is the strange case of the man locked in the loo. Despite banging on the door when people were stood outside, nobody thought to find me.

I'm telling you, you couldn't make it up.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

It's rather ironic that recently at many stations there is a repeated recorded announcement about security, the catch phrase being "see it, say it, sort it (or sorted?)". They are actively advising travellers to keep an eye out for anything suspicious, and notify "a member of train crew or the police".

I suppose the 61016 text number for BTP is the next best thing, but as we all know they may be 50 miles from where they are needed.

This reminds me of a incident ten years ago one Sunday. I got a call from our control.
"There's been a report of a suspicious bag left on the platform at the next station you are calling at, can you take a look inside to see if there is anything suspicious in there"

You can't make it up folks, believe me.

 

[Ianigsy]

I think the dream for the RMT would have been to have caused enough disruption that the National had to be cancelled or postponed - it's the one annual event which brings 50,000 people to Merseyside and the one opportunity to make their case before more than a purely local audience. Football wouldn't have the same impact- big games such as the derby and visits from the Manchester and London sides tend to be moved for the telly, and although you might have up to 10,000 visiting fans, those who come by train are just as likely to pick up a taxi at Lime Street.

Otherwise the one weakness in the RMT's campaign is going to be that in the 30 years since bus deregulation, the growth area in local services has been taking a lot of Wirral services which used to run to Woodside and diverting them into Birkenhead bus station and through the Birkenhead tunnel. West Kirby, New Brighton, Heswall, Bromborough, Chester- all have through buses to Liverpool city centre on a reasonably frequent basis. Much as the RMT would like to bring the area to a standstill, they can't in the way that they might have been able to do in the 1980s.

 

[ivanhoe]

Perhaps this threat could be a very good reason for the Jockey Club to move the Grand National away from Aintree.

No need and extremely unlikely that the National could be held anywhere except Aintree. You can't replicate Beechers Brook etc at say Cheltenham. Everybody got there and got home. The only people really inconvenienced were Merseysiders who did not have a normal rail service. Given that they had plenty of notice, life went on unsurprisingly. If it was sustained strike action, then perhaps both sides would be more inclined to sit around the table. One day strikes on Merseyside do not have the same effect as in London and the Home Counties.

 

[fowler9]

How does this work then? Unlike most trains, people aren't going to leave their seats to go to the toilets (there aren't any) or trolley, or shop, so they will be with their possessions all the time, except if they stick a suitcase between the seat backs, and even then most people would try to keep an eye on it.

Do you mean stalked when they get off the train? To be robbed in the station? On the street? That's rather worrying if so.

Street crime (Or public transport crime) is incredibly complex. Before making a round the world trip I read up on it extensively to basically learn how to remove myself from the target pool. This was after being robbed twice in Barcelona in the space of 2 days. These days my arm is constantly threaded through the strap of my bag, I don't wear headphones and listen to music. I make it obvious that I am looking around. Always look like you know where you are going and make sure you have pre planned so you aren't left out in a busy open area staring at a map or an expensive phone.

None of the stuff I mentioned there should have to be necessary but sadly it is if you want to control risk.The number of people I see, particularly girls, with a phone in their back pocket and a wire snaking to their headphones pointing out exactly where the high value stuff is and they don't now what is going on around them is incredible.

When in certain areas of certain foreign countries and certain areas of this country I carry a drop wallet with a small amount of cash and an expired cash card. I also favour walking trousers with concealed pockets where I keep the real money or anything I could really do without loosing.

Again none of that should be necessary but if you wander around any big city well dressed with your Beats headphones plugged in to your smart phone in your a**e pocket looking like you don't have a clue where you are going you are asking to be mugged.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No need and extremely unlikely that the National could be held anywhere except Aintree. You can't replicate Beechers Brook etc at say Cheltenham.

Chepstow hosts the Welsh Grand National with a race distance of three miles five and a half furlongs with a capacity running into five figures.

There is a precedent for holding a major sporting event away from its normal home, as was proved when the stadium in Cardiff hosted the FA Cup final whilst the new stadium at Wembley was in the process of construction.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Street crime (Or public transport crime) is incredibly complex. Before making a round the world trip I read up on it extensively to basically learn how to remove myself from the target pool. This was after being robbed twice in Barcelona in the space of 2 days. These days my arm is constantly threaded through the strap of my bag, I don't wear headphones and listen to music. I make it obvious that I am looking around. Always look like you know where you are going and make sure you have pre planned so you aren't left out in a busy open area staring at a map or an expensive phone.

None of the stuff I mentioned there should have to be necessary but sadly it is if you want to control risk.The number of people I see, particularly girls, with a phone in their back pocket and a wire snaking to their headphones pointing out exactly where the high value stuff is and they don't now what is going on around them is incredible.

When in certain areas of certain foreign countries and certain areas of this country I carry a drop wallet with a small amount of cash and an expired cash card. I also favour walking trousers with concealed pockets where I keep the real money or anything I could really do without loosing.

Again none of that should be necessary but if you wander around any big city well dressed with your Beats headphones plugged in to your smart phone in your a**e pocket looking like you don't have a clue where you are going you are asking to be mugged.

Excellent post, and some superb advice included.

Sadly what you say is quite true. Crime is very complex and the lengths people go to to commit it is staggering.
You see people asleep with their wallets on the seat. Yes, it actually happens. Mobile phones on the seats. Suitcases left where they can't be seen easily. People sat on late trains with lap tops out doing some work. Of course all these people think crime doesn't happen. I walk down the train and tell them to put these items away, but you get blank looks.

The truth is that Merseyrail trains will be a lot less safe, but hey, it's modernisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of the stuff I mentioned there should have to be necessary but sadly it is if you want to control risk.

In many places outside the UK (e.g. Barcelona, which has a massive problem with street crime to the point that precautions against it really sour a visit) I would agree. But Merseyrail is a relatively safe network (I have been on and off it for years since I was a kid, albeit not so much now I'm down South), just like LU is, and it has been made safer still by the Byelaw enforcement etc by the current franchise. It is not, and was not, the NY Subway or similar.

It's sensible to be streetwise, but I think your methods are somewhat overkill for most of the UK, certainly Merseyrail. Though I never put anything in my back pockets because if I sat down all 19 stone of me would squash it!

 

[wingsoveryorks]

In many places outside the UK (e.g. Barcelona, which has a massive problem with street crime to the point that precautions against it really sour a visit) I would agree. But Merseyrail is a relatively safe network (I have been on and off it for years since I was a kid, albeit not so much now I'm down South), just like LU is, and it has been made safer still by the Byelaw enforcement etc by the current franchise. It is not, and was not, the NY Subway or similar.

It's sensible to be streetwise, but I think your methods are somewhat overkill for most of the UK, certainly Merseyrail. Though I never put anything in my back pockets because if I sat down all 19 stone of me would squash it!

We all like to think our little part of the world is safe Neil, but it's not the case. If Merseyside is the Mecca of safety, why are they advocating putting security officers on trains? Why did guards become discouraged from doing revenue in favour of teams of revenue inspectors. Just because you have been lucky enough not to see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I have spoken to some Merseyrail guards. They openly admit they avoid certain types, groups of scallies and the like who you get no end of bother from. Same in the Glasgow SPT area.

I'll visit this site in five years from now when the crime on Merseyrail has shot up. The circle will be complete then, and the public will be demanding we go back to staff on the trains.

 

[ivanhoe]

Chepstow hosts the Welsh Grand National with a race distance of three miles five and a half furlongs with a capacity running into five figures.

There is a precedent for holding a major sporting event away from its normal home, as was proved when the stadium in Cardiff hosted the FA Cup final whilst the new stadium at Wembley was in the process of construction.

But why are you suggesting a potential move? Just Why? Most people attending the National on Saturday were not greatly inconvenienced. It's called planning and basically it went well. By the way, Northern Rail were on strike as well. Should have called off Man City's game as well. You're either causing mischief or an avid reader of the Telegraph or indeed both!

 

[Bletchleyite]

We all like to think our little part of the world is safe Neil, but it's not the case.

Isn't it?

As a passenger I have not ever experienced a situation on a UK train where I felt *unsafe*. It does help that I am pretty big and likely to be capable of defending myself pretty well (not that I've needed it) - but most "feeling unsafe" is pure perception.

I have seen a few situations where other passengers were being hassled (not actually attacked), but those were generally dealt with by passengers, not the guard. I think I can recall the guard getting involved once.

I have felt unsafe on the street and on late night buses, though. By comparison the railway is much better - and the more barriered "closed stations" we have, the better it gets.

You get the issue in MK where people cross 70mph dual carriageways on the level because of a perception the underpasses are unsafe. If you do some research into crime in MK it is just that - a perception - and it is completely wrong. But people put an awful lot of weight on their often incorrect "gut feel", then get flattened on attempting to cross the busy road.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Isn't it?

As a passenger I have not ever experienced a situation on a UK train where I felt *unsafe*. It does help that I am pretty big and likely to be capable of defending myself pretty well (not that I've needed it) - but most "feeling unsafe" is pure perception.

I have seen a few situations where other passengers were being hassled (not actually attacked), but those were generally dealt with by passengers, not the guard.

I have felt unsafe on the street and on late night buses, though. By comparison the railway is much better - and the more barriered "closed stations" we have, the better it gets.

You get the issue in MK where people cross 70mph dual carriageways on the level because of a perception the underpasses are unsafe. If you do some research into crime in MK it is just that - a perception - and it is completely wrong. But people put an awful lot of weight on their often incorrect "gut feel", then get flattened on attempting to cross the busy road.

I quite agree about the barrier stations, they do have a calming effect in general, but the calming effect is only evident in fare evasion. But does staff on trains not have the same effect? I think it does.

I don't work on perception, I work on experience, and experience tells me that the public in general really do not fancy travelling on trains with no staff. Let me give you a honest assessment. I wouldn't encourage any of my family to travel on an unstaffed late train on a Saturday night, I have seen too much random violence where innocent people have been the victims.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I quite agree about the barrier stations, they do have a calming effect in general, but the calming effect is only evident in fare evasion. But does staff on trains not have the same effect? I think it does.

Hence the security teams they propose. A guard in the back cab (which is where 99% of LM ones will be) is neither use nor ornament. That so many people I've spoken to seem to think LM (south WCML) is already DOO speaks volumes.

So keep the guards, then - but follow European and SWT practice and don't have them in the cabs *ever*, doubling them up if you need to (as SBB sometimes do)? Then there is real benefit, give or take the droplight issue.

I don't work on perception, I work on experience, and experience tells me that the public in general really do not fancy travelling on trains with no staff.

I know quite a few people who don't *fancy* it, but then that's exactly the perception issue to which I refer. And there aren't *no* staff, there are drivers. (I don't think the UK will ever reach the point where we are happy with *no* staff as you get on some Asian underground systems for example).

Let me give you a honest assessment. I wouldn't encourage any of my family to travel on an unstaffed late train on a Saturday night, I have seen too much random violence where innocent people have been the victims.

I note your username, and I do note that there does seem to be a specific issue with trains in the Yorkshire area on a Saturday evening, and to a lesser extent some parts of Manchester's local network. But those issues aren't everywhere. The "vomit comets" from Euston on a Saturday evening may occasionally be rowdy, and there might be the odd piece of idiocy like pulling the cord or the door release, but they don't have quite the same issues as you hear of from "up north", and all those issues cause by and large are delays.

But those issues would be best dealt with not by one guard, but by a team of maybe 3-4 "rentathugs" with body cameras etc (like the Merseyrail Byelaw Squads).

And that's not blind prejudice (I am a Northerner really after all ). I think it is very telling that LM have banned alcohol after 9pm from the Birmingham-Liverpool trains but not any other part of their network, FWIW.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But why are you suggesting a potential move? Just Why? Most people attending the National on Saturday were not greatly inconvenienced. It's called planning and basically it went well. By the way, Northern Rail were on strike as well. Should have called off Man City's game as well. You're either causing mischief or an avid reader of the Telegraph or indeed both!

Are you deliberately being obtuse...:roll:

How can you even think of comparing the iconic and nationally known Grand National at Aintree (with a railway station close at hand) with a Premier League football match played at the Manchester City Etihad Stadium in East Manchester (that has no railway station close by it).

This thread concerns Merseyrail and the fact that the RMT deliberately chose that particular franchise to cause disruption to that particularly Liverpool sporting event. Did you read the implied threat to any Aintree running of the Grand National for the next three years by the RMT in posting # 788 made by wingsoveryorks

Perhaps you are unaware that the Manchester City Etihad stadium is in fact served by the Manchester Metrolink system with its own stop of Etihad Campus. As far as I am aware, any Northern Rail strike has no effect on the running of the Manchester Metrolink system, thank God.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And Metrolink is, err, DOO.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Hence the security teams they propose. A guard in the back cab (which is where 99% of LM ones will be) is neither use nor ornament. That so many people I've spoken to seem to think LM (south WCML) is already DOO speaks volumes.

So keep the guards, then - but follow European and SWT practice and don't have them in the cabs *ever*, doubling them up if you need to (as SBB sometimes do)? Then there is real benefit, give or take the droplight issue.



I know quite a few people who don't *fancy* it, but then that's exactly the perception issue to which I refer. And there aren't *no* staff, there are drivers. (I don't think the UK will ever reach the point where we are happy with *no* staff as you get on some Asian underground systems for example).



I note your username, and I do note that there does seem to be a specific issue with trains in the Yorkshire area on a Saturday evening, and to a lesser extent some parts of Manchester's local network. But those issues aren't everywhere. The "vomit comets" from Euston on a Saturday evening may occasionally be rowdy, and there might be the odd piece of idiocy like pulling the cord or the door release, but they don't have quite the same issues as you hear of from "up north", and all those issues cause by and large are delays.

But those issues would be best dealt with not by one guard, but by a team of maybe 3-4 "rentathugs" with body cameras etc (like the Merseyrail Byelaw Squads).

And that's not blind prejudice (I am a Northerner really after all ). I think it is very telling that LM have banned alcohol after 9pm from the Birmingham-Liverpool trains but not any other part of their network, FWIW.

This is a Merseyrail thread, so I'm not going to go onto the Northern issue.

I don't disagree with much of what you say. I have always said change is needed. Alcohol bans work to some effect, but not when they are tanked up before they board. Barriers can help stop this, but only if you have police backup which isn't there. In fact, the police are the biggest problem of the lot when it comes to the "Not on my patch approach" They seem happy to foist the problem onto the trains.

Staff should always be in the trains, but the staff don't forget, can only work around their instructions. If they have been told to just operate the doors, that is what they will do. But I cannot really say how it works on Merseyrail, I just don't have the information.

As for 'Rentathug' security. Honestly, the TOC's would have a hissy at the suggestion. That is so not PC these days.

Let's be honest here. Merseyrail compared to the rest of the TOC's is a bit of an enigma. It's kind of unique in it's working practises. Ripe for change, yet stuck in it's ways. I just don't like the RMT dragging me into their dispute, which I felt was the case last Saturday.