RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[prod_pep]

Yes, every 7.5 minutes. Probably the best race-day service there's been (at the expense of serving other things).

It has been every 7/8 minutes between Liverpool and Aintree on all three days of the Grand National meeting for many years now.

 

[HH]

The fact he continued the privatisation programme, and started something called Public Private Partnership which proved a unmitigated disaster to London Underground that it was eventually scrapped, used it to help fund (allegedly) the NHS something we are now seeing the fruits off by the massive deficit it now finds itself in.

PPPs are in use throughout the world and generally work fine. You're laying the blame at the wrong door.

 

[Tetchytyke]

PPPs are in use throughout the world and generally work fine.

Are they? Do they? I can't think of many examples where it "works fine" and there hasn't been a scandal or two and plenty of cases of price-gouging. Look at the CityLink freeway in Melbourne as an example of how the price-gouging happens; the PFI operator actually sued the city for daring to build a new road that "competed" with the tolled freeway.

PPP/PFI was an excellent way of investing in new things without it having to show up on the balance sheet. I've always said that PFI was the Treasury equivalent of sticking everything on the Barclaycard and worrying about it later. Of course it smarts when you get the bill for it all later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has been every 7/8 minutes between Liverpool and Aintree on all three days of the Grand National meeting for many years now.

Not express, though?

Indeed, is this the first time a service train has not stopped at a number of the stations between Central and Aintree since Merseyrail started in its current form? Some are missed on the Boxing Day services, but not all!

 

[jamesst]

Not express, though?

Indeed, is this the first time a service train has not stopped at a number of the stations between Central and Aintree since Merseyrail started in its current form? Some are missed on the Boxing Day services, but not all!

The additional trains to Aintree only stop at Moorfields and Sandhills and have done for a few years now

 

[northwichcat]

Sadly the minimum wage is used by companies that do not have strong unions in them so exploit those workers in those industries and make the minimum wage the standard that most correspondents on here wish on others especially if they work in the rail industry (you will get your wish though as that is what McNulty was all about).

The minimum wage didn't exist pre-Blair so some workers may have needed union support to get their wage increased to a level which finished up being lower than the minimum wage when it came in.

The bit about people being on the minimum wage because they don't have union support is a load of rubbish. The GMB have a large number of members in low skilled jobs e.g. supermarket shelf stackers, who earn the minimum wage or just above it.

The rail unions claim they don't want a privitised industry - yet if inflation is low and the parent company of the TOC is profitable they want an above inflation pay rise, while if the parent company of the TOC reports a loss and inflation is high they want an inflation level pay rise. Public sectors workers usually get pay rises linked to inflation (or in the last few years a pay freeze was common whatever the rate of inflation was), while private sector workers get pay rises linked to the company's performance but the unions want the best of both worlds - something they won't get if the rail industry was nationalised. Parliament could even decide to have an independent body review the pay of railway staff who I imagine would find RPIs should get significant pay increases while drivers should get pay frozen for a few years as they've raced ahead in a race to the top.

Whilst he brought in the working time directive, it still didnt address the amount of hours people were working due to the opt out clause that allowed many companies to by pass the rulings.

It was people who were relying on seasonal jobs who wanted the opt out clause and an employer is not allowed to ask their employees to opt out - it can only be done if the employee asks to be opted out.

Of course the biggest thing he did was take us into an illegal war over 'Weapons of Mass destruction' something we are still looking for and something that has made us the terrorist target we have become, let alone the loss of many a British armed personal because of the war.

How does that make Blair right wing, which is what you were claiming? Is Putin right wing or was Castro right wing?

You do realise most Conservative MPs voted in favour of military action based on the intelligence we had so if Cameron had been PM then it would have Cameron we would be blaming for Iraq.

Oh i almost forgot can you enlighten me as what privileges Thatcher got rid of? I thought she just crushed them

Interesting objection to the use of a term from someone who thinks Blair is more right wing than Thatcher was but hasn't provided any evidence to back up that claim.

 

[HH]

Are they? Do they? I can't think of many examples where it "works fine" and there hasn't been a scandal or two and plenty of cases of price-gouging. Look at the CityLink freeway in Melbourne as an example of how the price-gouging happens; the PFI operator actually sued the city for daring to build a new road that "competed" with the tolled freeway.

PPP/PFI was an excellent way of investing in new things without it having to show up on the balance sheet. I've always said that PFI was the Treasury equivalent of sticking everything on the Barclaycard and worrying about it later. Of course it smarts when you get the bill for it all later.

Well it clearly works for a lot of public bodies - I get several emails a day about PPP opportunities - although I think there is merit in your arguments about why it is popular...

 

[InOban]

Arctic Troll is correct. PPP will always be more expensive in the long run, because it is cheaper for the public body to borrow money than it is for the private sector. By all means award a design, build, and maintain contract, although even they can have problems - try altering the building and they will take you to the cleaners.

 

[gray1404]

The service on the Southport line is very limited on the grand national day. I know this will be due to limited staff and Merseyrail having to concentrate their efforts on the Aintree line. I would have hoped though that, due to the fact the bus services running along that line north of Crosby finish very early compared to the train, that they would have provided a rail replacement bus service during such hours.

 

[robertclark125]

The only thing I can think of is that trying to get buses and staff to drive them may be difficult. There may be high demand for coaches on that day, and also, Northern are on strike that day, meaning possibly, coaches in use on there as well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The service on the Southport line is very limited on the Grand National day. I know this will be due to limited staff and Merseyrail having to concentrate their efforts on the Aintree line. I would have hoped though that, due to the fact the bus services running along that line north of Crosby finish very early compared to the train, that they would have provided a rail replacement bus service during such hours.

Noting what you say about bus services on a Saturday from the north of Crosby, obviously in the Southport direction, there are two such services:-

Service 47...Liverpool to Crossens
15 to 20 minute service frequency

Service X2...Liverpool to Preston
30 minute service frequency.

At least these will be running for most of the day on that particular Saturday.

 

[gray1404]

Yes, it should be fine for the bulk of the day. I noticed that during the last strike the 53 from Liverpool to Crosby was running with many double deckers on the route which meant boarding the 47/X2 was fairly easy. The problem comes in when the bus service is reduced to hourly in the evening and with an early finish. Around 22:10 from Liverpool heading to Southport.

I do think that Merseyrail have over concentrated their efforts (for the Northern line at least) solely on the Grand National and still have an early finish on all services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think that Merseyrail have over concentrated their efforts (for the Northern line at least) solely on the Grand National and still have an early finish on all services.

There was an early finish last time too. For the strike days they are basically operating a single split shift.

 

[6Gman]

The only thing I can think of is that trying to get buses and staff to drive them may be difficult. There may be high demand for coaches on that day, and also, Northern are on strike that day, meaning possibly, coaches in use on there as well.

Booking a coach within 30-50 miles of Liverpool on Grand National Day would be very, very difficult.

On a recent occasion the coaches to meet the VSOE were hired from Voel, Dyserth (near Rhyl) and even they had to sub-hire from a Caernarfon operator!

 

[northwichcat]

The attempt of the RMT strike on Merseyrail to disrupt the Grand National was a complete failure. The BBC local news asked people arriving at Aintree about the strike and the ones who had come from outside the area were completely unaware that there was a strike on! Obviously Merseyrail did a good job of making sure people found Central from Lime Street OK and making sure punters got moved from Central to Aintree quickly.

One of the few people they spoke to who was aware of there being a strike was a local woman who said "They shouldn't be sacking the guards and the guards who fight being sacked deserve a medal."

 

[AntoniC]

To achieve the service for the Grand National, they crippled the service elsewhere.

For example Southport to Liverpool Central only 6 trains in the morning in a very short period of time and no return service until early evening.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

The attempt of the RMT strike on Merseyrail to disrupt the Grand National was a complete failure. The BBC local news asked people arriving at Aintree about the strike and the ones who had come from outside the area were completely unaware that there was a strike on! Obviously Merseyrail did a good job of making sure people found Central from Lime Street OK and making sure punters got moved from Central to Aintree quickly.

One of the few people they spoke to who was aware of there being a strike was a local woman who said "They shouldn't be sacking the guards and the guards who fight being sacked deserve a medal."

It is called cherry picking. What they do is take interviews from a selection of people, then use the ones that suit their agenda. The BBC are famous for it.

 

[185143]

The Grand National service did indeed run annoyingly well, and I spoke to a few people outside Aintree whilst waiting (a very long time!) For a bus who tried to convince me the strike had been called off, as there were trains! Part of me wanted to see the event completely ruined, but I fear it would have cost a lot of public support. Another thing I noticed was several people unaware of the strike and/or assuming it was about pay. When the idea that the trains were being made DOO was mentioned-they were horrified and in full support of the strike.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is called cherry picking. What they do is take interviews from a selection of people, then use the ones that suit their agenda. The BBC are famous for it.

Fake news? SAD.

 

[northwichcat]

It is called cherry picking. What they do is take interviews from a selection of people, then use the ones that suit their agenda. The BBC are famous for it.

The BBC did show a reporter at Central station with the departure displays showing an Aintree service every 7/8 minutes and the reporter did point out Merseyrail have thrown most of their resources at moving race goers with the services on other lines being neglected - which seemed a fair analysis. They also included pieces from John Tilley, Darren Ireland (both RMT) and Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde (Merseyrail). If anything having 2 RMT people and 1 Merseyrail person was biased towards the RMT.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

People are failing to see what the strike was called for. It was to create problems for management, and it worked.

Merseyside is a area of over four million people. Only 70,000 were at the national, and most of them came from outside. The rest of Merseyrail was shut down almost, just to keep the 70,000 happy. Try telling the rail users of the rest of Merseyside that the management operation was a success.

What Merseytravel cannot understand is the level of support from the area for the guards. It must be very annoying for them when all their propaganda falls of deaf ears.

 

[northwichcat]

When the idea that the trains were being made DOO was mentioned-they were horrified and in full support of the strike.

Did you mention that the 'higher risk' services would have 'security staff' on board, while most services would operate without anyone apart from the driver or just the removal of guards?

 

[northwichcat]

Merseyside is a area of over four million people. Only 70,000 were at the national, and most of them came from outside. The rest of Merseyrail was shut down almost, just to keep the 70,000 happy. Try telling the rail users of the rest of Merseyside that the management operation was a success.

Apart from services in Merseyside are also provided by TPE, EMT, LM, Virgin and ATW and not everyone in Merseyside travels by train every Saturday.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Did you mention that the 'higher risk' services would have 'security staff' on board, while most services would operate without anyone apart from the driver or just the removal of guards?

Problem is this, and this is from considerable experience on the railway.

How do you establish what is a higher risk service?

Do criminals only come out in the evening? Because from my experience most crime happens in the daylight. Better to have someone on every train.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Apart from services in Merseyside are also provided by TPE, EMT, LM, Virgin and ATW and not everyone in Merseyside travels by train every Saturday.

Again, like the BBC did, you are forgetting those who do.

 

[northwichcat]

Problem is this, and this is from considerable experience on the railway.

How do you establish what is a higher risk service?

Do criminals only come out in the evening? Because from my experience most crime happens in the daylight. Better to have someone on every train.

I agree it's difficult to pick the times/sections which need a second member of staff. However, I think the public should be given all the information before deciding whether or not they support a strike. If they only travel on the train for a night out in Liverpool and Merseyrail plan to have the 'security staff' on those trains then they might say they support the strike if not given the information about the security staff but might not really be bothered if they are given information about the security staff.

Like I said before Merseyrail guards do seem to provide a more visible staff presence than guards on other operator's services and the visible staff presence is really what a lot of passengers want.

 

[northwichcat]

Again, like the BBC did, you are forgetting those who do.

Ahem!

The BBC did show a reporter at Central station with the departure displays showing an Aintree service every 7/8 minutes and the reporter did point out Merseyrail have thrown most of their resources at moving race goers with the services on other lines being neglected - which seemed a fair analysis. They also included pieces from John Tilley, Darren Ireland (both RMT) and Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde (Merseyrail). If anything having 2 RMT people and 1 Merseyrail person was biased towards the RMT.

Your mention of 4 million people living in Merseyside is a misleading statistic because there are many places in Merseyside which don't get a Merseyrail service and Merseyrail do serve a small number of stations outside of Merseyside.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

I agree it's difficult to pick the times/sections which need a second member of staff. However, I think the public should be given all the information before deciding whether or not they support a strike. If they only travel on the train for a night out in Liverpool and Merseyrail plan to have the 'security staff' on those trains then they might say they support the strike if not given the information about the security staff but might not really be bothered if they are given information about the security staff.

Like I said before Merseyrail guards do seem to provide a more visible staff presence than guards on other operator's services and the visible staff presence is really what a lot of passengers want.

The visible presence is probably down to the fact they don't do revenue, so they have time to be visible.

Crime is very fluid, and most low level crime takes place between 10am and 7pm. Then the drunks appear and a different problem comes with that.
A lot of it is down to perception, I have seen passengers effectively being stalked in order to be robbed, and they have been blissfully unaware of what was taking place.

I will never be able to convince those who don't want to be convinced, so I will go and enjoy the sunshine. Have a good un.

 

[6Gman]

On my trip to Aintree I was amused to note a "Merseyrail, we want to keep our guards" sticker by the (former) door control panel of our 507.

I was tempted to write "hear, hear" on it ...

 

[185143]

On my trip to Aintree I was amused to note a "Merseyrail, we want to keep our guards" sticker by the (former) door control panel of our 507.

I was tempted to write "hear, hear" on it ...

Most of the Merseyrail units have them-they are everywhere! At least one unit has them dotted all over one of the carriages too!