RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[northwichcat]

who demand that others accept temporary contacts

What's unreasonable about a fixed term contract for any new Merseyrail guard? The new guards would know exactly how long they have employment for while it would reduce the chance of redundancies for existing guards not on fixed term contracts.

how dare anyone else aspire to have what I have got

If a business was to get rid of a role I had, I would welcome being told years in advance of the change (as Merseyrail are doing.) I once had to make do with being told on Monday my role was at risk and on Thursday that I was being made redundant. If I'd been told my role will be at risk in 3 years time that would have given me plenty of time to look at various options, create an up-to-date CV, practice interview skills etc.

 

[northwichcat]

If the guard always stays in the back cab when it is part of their Job Description to patrol the train then the company should be better managing its staff ensuring they carry out their duties as expected

Apparently on Northern guards are allowed to stay in the cab if they don't feel safe walking up and down the train. Yet it seems some of the more experienced guards have decided after a certain time in the evening they'll remain in their cab whatever day it is and whichever line they're working, while some of the more junior ones do a full ticket inspection on late night services problem free.

However, like I've already said from my experience Merseyrail guards do provide a visible staff presence.

 

[urbophile]

All I will say in my defence is I have what I have in life is solely down to my own efforts and the "silver spoon in the mouth" syndrome most certainly does not apply to me.

That is always the defence of conservatives. Admittedly a lot of people work hard and are rewarded for it, but very many more work hard (or harder) and struggle to survive. I'm prepared to believe that Mr Sidorczuk's good fortune is largely down to his own efforts. But George Osborne probably thinks the same about his. 'No man [or woman] is an island entire of itself', said, rightly, John Donne. I doubt if anyone in today's Britain who has benefited from free education, healthcare and a generally supportive environment can claim to gain success 'solely' from his or her own efforts.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is always the defence of conservatives. Admittedly a lot of people work hard and are rewarded for it, but very many more work hard (or harder) and struggle to survive. I'm prepared to believe that Mr Sidorczuk's good fortune is largely down to his own efforts. But George Osborne probably thinks the same about his. 'No man [or woman] is an island entire of itself', said, rightly, John Donne. I doubt if anyone in today's Britain who has benefited from free education, healthcare and a generally supportive environment can claim to gain success 'solely' from his or her own efforts.

Perhaps you have missed the later posting # 718 that I made.

 

[muz379]

At the end of the day Paul I think that you and your good lady wife are rightly reaping the rich rewards of many years hard work. From what you say your life so far has been a real adventure and that can only be a good thing. The world has changed though. What my parents got after leaving school at 16 is no longer possible just through hard work.

I will second this comment . People these days are going to university and obtaining good degrees as Paul did and then finding that the jobs are just not there in the numbers required .

I will also say whilst it sounds like Paul has always put the work in , there is always an element of luck involved as well .

Apparently on Northern guards are allowed to stay in the cab if they don't feel safe walking up and down the train. Yet it seems some of the more experienced guards have decided after a certain time in the evening they'll remain in their cab whatever day it is and whichever line they're working, while some of the more junior ones do a full ticket inspection on late night services problem free.

However, like I've already said from my experience Merseyrail guards do provide a visible staff presence.

If you do not feel safe patrolling the train for some reason then you are are quite right to remain in the rear cab as a place of safety .This is pretty much the catch all "protect your own health and safety first" provision that exists in all workplaces . Do these duties , but only if safe .Personally I have never felt that unsafe that I would not at least have a walk through to see what is happening at periodic intervals through a journey unless pre occupied by some other task like speaking to control or trying to get revenue equipment to work .

Logic to me dictates that should I feel that unsafe that I cannot patrol then the same would apply to my passengers feeling unsafe and so something is wrong which needs outside assistance from travel safe officers or the BTP so we can all feel safe again . Of course there is the chance that your uniform could attract trouble from someone who might not start on a member of the public but then there is always the opportunity to return to the cab and ring the BTP for assistance then .

All I would say is if Northern find that guards are increasingly not patrolling the train even just to see what is going on then they should address that , be it by speaking to the staff members concerned to find out why , offering more training or something to build confidence or looking at making the on board environment safer so that guards can patrol their train .


Doing revenue checks on the other hand , I can see why some guards might not do these or might be more relaxed with them late on a Friday or Saturday , . Not because it is unsafe . Simply because experience dictates it to be a lost cause . Drunk people generally are okay to me , most are in good spirits after a night out but when they are messing around pretending not to have tickets or pretending their mates dont have tickets you rarely get to check that many tickets with all the messing around like that at each group you come to . And if you are working the last train anywhere even if you do come across someone travelling without a ticket , a means of paying or willing to provide details control will probably just tell you to crack on because of the potential "customer service" issue of dumping someone with no way of getting home at an unstaffed shack in the middle of nowhere . And if they refuse to leave the service when requested if you do take that line , should they refuse you are then pulling the BTP away from other much more important matters for a fare evader.

 

[Starmill]

I find it impossible to imagine some kind of situation in which it's 'safe' for me as a passenger to sit in the saloon while it is not 'safe' for the guard to walk through it. If the train is, in reality, not safe enough for its own guard to walk through it, then I think it needs to be evacuated.

 

[AlterEgo]

That is always the defence of conservatives. Admittedly a lot of people work hard and are rewarded for it, but very many more work hard (or harder) and struggle to survive. I'm prepared to believe that Mr Sidorczuk's good fortune is largely down to his own efforts. But George Osborne probably thinks the same about his. 'No man [or woman] is an island entire of itself', said, rightly, John Donne. I doubt if anyone in today's Britain who has benefited from free education, healthcare and a generally supportive environment can claim to gain success 'solely' from his or her own efforts.

The key to success isn't in working hard necessarily, but working smartly.

I can see the RMT working hard, but not smartly!

 

[urbophile]

Perhaps you have missed the later posting # 718 that I made.

No I read it. I don't see how that answers my points.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No I read it. I don't see how that answers my points.

How about promotion to the highest echelons of a company, then finding the person cannot cope with the responsibilities of the position, leading to demotion or even redundancy.

It appears to me that certain people think that once a sought-after senior position is obtained, all runs swimmingly for evermore...

 

[trainophile]

I find it impossible to imagine some kind of situation in which it's 'safe' for me as a passenger to sit in the saloon while it is not 'safe' for the guard to walk through it. If the train is, in reality, not safe enough for its own guard to walk through it, then I think it needs to be evacuated.

I quite agree, but I suppose the argument would be that passengers are free to leave the train at the first opportunity if they feel unsafe, whereas a guard is stuck on there for the duration of his shift.

I use Merseyrail a fair bit, and would say that more often than not there is a guard walking through, although sometimes it turns out to be a couple of RPIs (who always seem to be in two's). If any of the guards do choose to stay in the back cab except for popping out to do the doors, it's hardly surprising that they are worried about their future if even door duties no longer require their attention.

I have noticed a lot more non-recorded onboard announcements recently, and wondered if that is a way of reminding us of their existence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not only can a passenger leave the train if they need to, they also aren't likely to become the receiving end of ire for delays etc. So the risk to them is much lower.

 

[BestWestern]

I am 71 and my wife is 75 and we are the only two people in our residence. When I was in Canada from 1995 to 2004, heading our consultancy team on a Canadian Hydro project, many times we were on various construction sites at night on a regular basis, so just think carefully about such comments that you bandy about without having any knowledge of what were the involvement of other forum members in their own specific fields of employment.

And did your good self and your consultancy team break the ground with shovels, pump concrete and carry bricks? It can always be debated who is the most important, those at the top or those at the bottom. It can be argued who is the most skilled, the architect drawing the plans or the craftsmen bringing them to life. It is rarely debated who takes home the biggest turkey at Christmas of course, that'd be those at the top. But it is almost always, rarely with any exception, those at the bottom who work the hardest. It takes a far bigger team of skilled men to build the finished article, than it does to consult on what they should be building beforehand.

We all have our own perspectives, of course. But it can often be said that those who've gone to university, gained their degrees and started their careers in a suit, for all their achievements, have absolutely no idea what it means to 'work hard' in terms of the little people who actually create the things which pay their salaries.

Just a thought

 

[muz379]

How about promotion to the highest echelons of a company, then finding the person cannot cope with the responsibilities of the position, leading to demotion or even redundancy.

It appears to me that certain people think that once a sought-after senior position is obtained, all runs swimmingly for evermore...

It certainly seems though from my experience in certain organisations that those in senior positions who make mistakes often retain their jobs in situations in which Juniors displaying such incompetence would not .

We all have our own perspectives, of course. But it can often be said that those who've gone to university, gained their degrees and started their careers in a suit, for all their achievements, have absolutely no idea what it means to 'work hard' in terms of the little people who actually create the things which pay their salaries.

Just a thought

Whilst I am cynical sometimes of the way companies put people in management positions just by virtue of them having a degree I saw a lot of it in retail people walking into organisations at store manager and above level having never worked a day in the retailer concerned . However I do have friends who work in the legal and financial services sector and whilst the work is not physically demanding like construction work the hours are more than long enough and the actual stress and brain power that is required for those jobs makes thankful some days that I take home the wage I do from being a guard just by doing what I am told day in day out .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And did your good self and your consultancy team break the ground with shovels, pump concrete and carry bricks? It can always be debated who is the most important, those at the top or those at the bottom. It can be argued who is the most skilled, the architect drawing the plans or the craftsmen bringing them to life. It is rarely debated who takes home the biggest turkey at Christmas of course, that'd be those at the top. But it is almost always, rarely with any exception, those at the bottom who work the hardest. It takes a far bigger team of skilled men to build the finished article, than it does to consult on what they should be building beforehand.

We all have our own perspectives, of course. But it can often be said that those who've gone to university, gained their degrees and started their careers in a suit, for all their achievements, have absolutely no idea what it means to 'work hard' in terms of the little people who actually create the things which pay their salaries.

Just a thought

You will of course realise that our consultancy had no "pick and shovel" division, but having obtained the management contract, it was our responsibility to seek the shortlisted Canadian companies who had a good track record in all aspects of their work in the environments in which these Hydro projects were situated to make hard and fast legally binding tender submissions.

There are different aspects of employment that some people will excel in, but the type of work done is not comparable. Let me tell you one fact that I have always adhered to and that my belief is that employees are real people and not just statistics on a human resources register. Admittedly, as my thirty years in the field of senior management went by, my view as stated as one in such a position that I held became less and less the held view. There are very few large companies known to me now where the whole ethos is interchangeability of roles, as the skills required in one type of work in the business do not readily lend themselves interchangeability-wise. This is why, noting the current railway scenario, either the RMT or ASLEF do not become TOC, but instead, adhere to the specific parts of railway operations that they have much experience in.

 

[DMU180]

What's unreasonable about a fixed term contract for any new Merseyrail guard? The new guards would know exactly how long they have employment for while it would reduce the chance of redundancies for existing guards not on fixed term contracts.



If a business was to get rid of a role I had, I would welcome being told years in advance of the change (as Merseyrail are doing.) I once had to make do with being told on Monday my role was at risk and on Thursday that I was being made redundant. If I'd been told my role will be at risk in 3 years time that would have given me plenty of time to look at various options, create an up-to-date CV, practice interview skills etc.

The other thing is that Merseyrail have guaranteed them all roles in other departments. They offered 100 driver vacancies to them, 60 vacancies as the new on board service hosts and the rest as station staff or other areas (control, head office etc.) They are letting them keep their T's and C's b too so they are being well looked after. Nobody is losing their job, it is part of the RMT's political agenda because they don't like a conservative government.

 

[danbarnstall]

The other thing is that Merseyrail have guaranteed them all roles in other departments. They offered 100 driver vacancies to them, 60 vacancies as the new on board service hosts and the rest as station staff or other areas (control, head office etc.) They are letting them keep their T's and C's b too so they are being well looked after. Nobody is losing their job, it is part of the RMT's political agenda because they don't like a conservative government.

The politicians who voted for DOO are actually Labour ones on Merseyside. Unlike other disputes you can't pin this one on Tory dislike.

 

[313103]

The other thing is that Merseyrail have guaranteed them all roles in other departments. They offered 100 driver vacancies to them, 60 vacancies as the new on board service hosts and the rest as station staff or other areas (control, head office etc.) They are letting them keep their T's and C's b too so they are being well looked after. Nobody is losing their job, it is part of the RMT's political agenda because they don't like a conservative government.

In life like many things NOTHING is ever guaranteed, Merseyrail may well offer 100 driver vacancies, however there is no guarantee that 1 member of former guards grade let alone 100 will be successful in getting a drivers role. Likewise for any other role, the company will make the ultimate decision not the employee!

If you are changing roles how do you keep your current terms and conditions that applied for the job that is no longer relevant?

You know for certain that no one is losing their job? Unless you are in Merseyrail HR you cannot make such a statement.

I think you will find they dont like the Labour governments either, so it was silly making the assumptions that they single out Conservatives.

 

[northwichcat]

I think you will find they dont like the Labour governments either, so it was silly making the assumptions that they single out Conservatives.

Bob Crow was one of the founders of the TUSC who claim their formation was down to Labour becoming 'Tory Lite'

 

[WatcherZero]

Mick Cash calling out Joe Anderson for daring to write to him and suggesting he write to the franchise owners instead. Hardly a friendly response to the overture.

 

[HH]

I think Mick Cash is related to that Danish feller who tried to turn back the waves; what was his name? Ah, Cnut.

 

[Goldfish62]

Bob Crow was one of the founders of the TUSC who claim their formation was down to Labour becoming 'Tory Lite'

But Crow was a former member of the British Communist Party so probably considered every labour government that has ever existed to be Tory Lite.

 

[6Gman]

I think Mick Cash is related to that Danish feller who tried to turn back the waves; what was his name? Ah, Cnut.

PEDANT ALERT

Cnut (Knut, Canute) did NOT try to turn back any waves. Quite the opposite. He sat by the waves to show his courtiers that even a King has to observe the laws of nature.

 

[M28361M]

Strike timetables for 8th April just released at http://www.merseyrail.org/strike-action/strike-timetables.aspx

• Trains for Aintree will start at 10:06 and run until 13:36, calling at Liverpool Central, Moorfields and Aintree stations only. There will be no trains from Aintree to Liverpool city centre during this time.
• Trains from Aintree will start at 16:34 and run until 20:57, calling at Aintree, Moorfields and Liverpool Central stations only. There will be no trains from Liverpool city centre to Aintree during this time.
• No trains will run between Aintree and Ormskirk stations. Rail replacement buses will run between Ormskirk and Old Roan stations, calling at Maghull station.
• Train services will start at approximately 09:30 across the Merseyrail network.
• On the Southport line, during the morning trains will only run from Southport towards Liverpool city centre. There will be no trains from Liverpool city centre to Southport.
• During the evening trains will only run from Liverpool city centre towards Southport. There will be no trains from Southport to Liverpool city centre or Hunts Cross.
• 30 minute frequency Liverpool-West Kirby and Liverpool-Hooton
• There will be a break in service during the day. All trains, including those for Aintree, will stop at approximately 13:33 and resume at approximately 16:33.
• Train services will end at approximately 21:30.

 

[313103]

Bob Crow was one of the founders of the TUSC who claim their formation was down to Labour becoming 'Tory Lite'

Which of course is what it became, the Tony Blair administration of the Labour party took it so far right you could say the Maggie Thatcher governments were in comparison left wing.

 

[northwichcat]

Which of course is what it became, the Tony Blair administration of the Labour party took it so far right you could say the Maggie Thatcher governments were in comparison left wing.

So you preferred Thatcher's Employment Act of 1982, which removed a lot of Trade Union rights to Blair's introduction of minimum wage, introduction of paternity pay, improvements to legal minimum holiday entitlement, maximum working hours etc.? Or is it a case of because Blair didn't reinstate the trade union privileges removed by Thatcher he's 'one of them' in the union's eyes?

 

[6Gman]

Strike timetables for 8th April just released at http://www.merseyrail.org/strike-action/strike-timetables.aspx

Any indication of frequency to/from Aintree?

 

[northwichcat]

Any indication of frequency to/from Aintree?

Every 7.5 min from Liverpool Central to Aintree in the morning and then the trains go ECS back to Central, with the reverse in the afternoon/evening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any indication of frequency to/from Aintree?

Yes, every 7.5 minutes. Probably the best race-day service there's been (at the expense of serving other things).

 

[jamesst]

Yes, every 7.5 minutes. Probably the best race-day service there's been (at the expense of serving other things).

Nowhere near the best...

 

[313103]

So you preferred Thatcher's Employment Act of 1982, which removed a lot of Trade Union rights to Blair's introduction of minimum wage, introduction of paternity pay, improvements to legal minimum holiday entitlement, maximum working hours etc.? Or is it a case of because Blair didn't reinstate the trade union privileges removed by Thatcher he's 'one of them' in the union's eyes?

The fact he continued the privatisation programme, and started something called Public Private Partnership which proved a unmitigated disaster to London Underground that it was eventually scrapped, used it to help fund (allegedly) the NHS something we are now seeing the fruits off by the massive deficit it now finds itself in.

Sadly the minimum wage is used by companies that do not have strong unions in them so exploit those workers in those industries and make the minimum wage the standard that most correspondents on here wish on others especially if they work in the rail industry (you will get your wish though as that is what McNulty was all about).

Whilst he brought in the working time directive, it still didnt address the amount of hours people were working due to the opt out clause that allowed many companies to by pass the rulings. It was only after rules involving workers rights introduced by EU that it was strengthened and set out the requirements of Annual Leave etc.

Of course the biggest thing he did was take us into an illegal war over 'Weapons of Mass destruction' something we are still looking for and something that has made us the terrorist target we have become, let alone the loss of many a British armed personal because of the war.

Oh i almost forgot can you enlighten me as what privileges Thatcher got rid of? I thought she just crushed them by changing the law in favour of the companies and bosses rather then the worker., but i would be enlightened to know the privileges all the same .