RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[SA_900]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

 

[SA_900]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

 

[Onedirection]

Virgin, LM, TPE and EMT will be running so it won't be completely hopeless getting to Liverpool on the Saturday, from the south particularly.
The final few miles might be tricky though.
Taxis will do well.

Taxis are on a blockade that day to over changes in licensing laws !

 

[DMU180]

So the McNulty report said guards or the equivalent are not worth the money (please don't compare them to hospital cleaners etc) Instead of encouraging guards to maximise revenue (if they sold tickets), to boost the bottom line value of the guard roll. There was basically a campaign which said if guards want to do jack then that is their choice DONT YOU DARE QUESTION THEM.

Yes a guard will be a great help in an incident. But how many incidents that require a guard happen? Not many I expect. So why are guards not encouraged to do their best to check tickets, sell extensions etc to highlight the monetary value of the role

Hit a nerve have I? Merseyrail provide guards with journey plans with what duties they are expected to undertake at which points on the line. Guards knowingly ignore this and therefore do not carry out their duties correctly. Merseytravel noticed this and decided what is the point in funding a grade that doesn't do anything extra they are supposed to do other then the basic opening and closing doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absurd- it's not a war zone. Not going to come to any harm.

Staff are often assaulted on the railways. But to me that's an argument for having multiple-person security teams on trains at times of day when security problems arise (e.g. last few evening trains) and, to compensate, just the driver at times of day when they tend not to (e.g. middle of a weekday afternoon).

 

[313103]

Staff are often assaulted on the railways. But to me that's an argument for having multiple-person security teams on trains at times of day when security problems arise (e.g. last few evening trains) and, to compensate, just the driver at times of day when they tend not to (e.g. middle of a weekday afternoon).

Of course no one knows when a member of staff is going to be assaulted, as they are assaulted at any given time, that alone would make using outside a security guard let alone a roving group of them a nightmare. in many areas your more then likely going to assaulted in the middle of a weekday afternoon then late evening.

However if we used your analogy by getting rid of railway staff, there would be no need to employ outside agency security as there would be no railway staff to be looked after!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The security staff (I didn't say anything about agencies, I would hope it would be an extension of the present railway-employed Byelaw squads) would be there to ensure passengers were safe (and drivers).

 

[Darren R]

Delaying trains because of 'hardened fare dodgers' is idiotic.

Umm...why? Are you saying that 'hardened fare dodgers' should just be left to get on with it unimpeded and unpunished in case dealing with them delays trains?

 

[313103]

The security staff (I didn't say anything about agencies, I would hope it would be an extension of the present railway-employed Byelaw squads) would be there to ensure passengers were safe (and drivers).

So you agree with my comment that there will be no railway staff other then drivers (of which you have quoted)?

Why suggest staff are being assaulted so need security staff and then say that the so called security staff are there for the passengers (and the driver).

Unlike you i have never heard Byelaw squads either. Perhaps you can enlighten me who or what these people are and what their role entails.

You don't think a railway company is going to get rid of railway staff (ie station staff, Guards and backroom staff) and then employ directly security staff do you?

 

[danbarnstall]

So you agree with my comment that there will be no railway staff other then drivers (of which you have quoted)?

Why suggest staff are being assaulted so need security staff and then say that the so called security staff are there for the passengers (and the driver).

Unlike you i have never heard Byelaw squads either. Perhaps you can enlighten me who or what these people are and what their role entails.

You don't think a railway company is going to get rid of railway staff (ie station staff, Guards and backroom staff) and then employ directly security staff do you?

They are sub contracted security staff, they aren't far off being agency in terms of T&Cs. As they are subcontracted TOCs don't need to pay holiday, sick or maternity pay not to mention pension contributions. Good for dealing with anti social behaviour but packing trains with these instead of Guards isn't the answer. Very much race to the bottom stuff if you ask me (Employ as cheap as possible).

By law teams tend to be rovering teams, you'all never get one permanently on the train. Quite often the sight of a guard is enough to act as a deterrent, heads problems off before they start if you like. They do have value however especially with aggressive passengers.

 

[M28361M]

I would hope it would be an extension of the present railway-employed Byelaw squads

The current "Byelaw Enforcement Officers" on Merseyrail are Carlisle Security, not directly employed by the TOC. For example, see https://www.carlislesupportservices.com/news/Pages/carlisle-merseyrail-team-make-news.aspx

 

[Bletchleyite]

The current "Byelaw Enforcement Officers" on Merseyrail are Carlisle Security, not directly employed by the TOC. For example, see https://www.carlislesupportservices.com/news/Pages/carlisle-merseyrail-team-make-news.aspx

I stand corrected (and highly disappointed).

 

[HH]

The current "Byelaw Enforcement Officers" on Merseyrail are Carlisle Security, not directly employed by the TOC. For example, see https://www.carlislesupportservices.com/news/Pages/carlisle-merseyrail-team-make-news.aspx

Carlisle do have some form. Can't think of any in-house security team with as much experience...

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you agree with my comment that there will be no railway staff other then drivers (of which you have quoted)?

I think there will be trains where the only member of staff on board of any kind is the driver, yes.

I do not have a problem with this on Merseyrail, as I have said before.

Why suggest staff are being assaulted so need security staff and then say that the so called security staff are there for the passengers (and the driver).

Some trains may need security staff. If they do, it's best to provide a team of those than a guard hiding in the back cab fearing for his safety.

Unlike you i have never heard Byelaw squads either. Perhaps you can enlighten me who or what these people are and what their role entails.

It turns out they are contracted security staff which I didn't know. But what they do on Merseyrail is enforce the Railway Byelaws, e.g. feet on seats etc.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Interesting to note that some postings seem to make the point that a member of rail staff could prove a deterrent to certain types of "awkward passengers" yet there are others who have mentioned the assaults on rail staff.

 

[313103]

The annoying thing on here is that everyone that is for DOO says the Guards 'ALWAYS' stays in the back cab and 'NEVER' goes into the passenger compartment. This is a scandalous statement and i get the feeling made by people with either an agenda or never travel by train. This is the accusation being made that no mersyrail guard ever comes through the train, i know the stock used is 507s which i believe are similar in layout to how i remember 313s that i use to work on. Sadly the last time i travelled on that line was when it was under BR so i dont know if they have been modified since and i certainly dont know what instructions on where the guard should be by Merseyrail (although judging by the comments someone must have access).

The companies trains i use the most are Arriva Trains Wales and First Great Western. i would say that on average Arriva Guards go through the train and dispatch from the train a good 95% of the time, the only times i fail to see it is in either of the peaks when the trains are often wedged to the gunnels and the Guard cannot get through.

Recently i took a holiday and had to travel on FGW one return to trip to Reading the other return trip to Gatwick. On the SWML it can hit and miss whether you have your ticket checked but you always see the train manager walking through the train bearing in mind that every station a South Wales main line service stops at with the exception of Port Talbot Parkway has barriers so i can understand why you often see the Guards not doing ticket checks. This was my experience on these services recently as well although the return journey was made in the rush hour and i had stood to Bristol as a result. However the Reading to Gatwick service was different on both occasions the guards came through at least twice and on one three times during the journey and these were busy services. Yet all i hear on here is the guard never leaves the back cab, i had it when i was guard (despite it not being true once the 378s entered service) going from being in the train all the time to only doing some of the time when i knew they were defiantly going ahead with DOO.

 

[fowler9]

I think a lot of this is confirmation bias. People will look out for things that back up what they believe. I am guilty of it myself. I tend to do it with motorists, I tend not to notice the thousands of completely reasonable motorists but if I get one that doesn't indicate or is speeding it sticks in my head. Same with guards, when I used to travel on Merseyrail not so long ago I remember very well that they would travel down the train opening doors from where they were. If you are looking out for guards not leaving the back of the train you will find it, and probably ignore all the ones that walk through the train.

 

[WatcherZero]

Virgin, LM, TPE and EMT will be running so it won't be completely hopeless getting to Liverpool on the Saturday, from the south particularly.
The final few miles might be tricky though.
Taxis will do well.

Second largest local Taxi driver union are on strike as well and saying they are going to use 60 taxis to blockade city centre roads complaining that new drivers cant drive until after their criminal records check and DVLA verification of their drivers licenses is completed :roll:

(brought in by council to stop sex offenders operating with a temporary license)

 

[fowler9]

Second largest local Taxi driver union are on strike as well and saying they are going to use 60 taxis to blockade city centre roads complaining that new drivers cant drive until after their criminal records check and DVLA verification of their drivers licenses is completed :roll:

(brought in by council to stop sex offenders operating with a temporary license)

Which cab companies are involved. 2 of my mates drive black cabs in Liverpool and have not mentioned this at all.

 

[Robertj21a]

Second largest local Taxi driver union are on strike as well and saying they are going to use 60 taxis to blockade city centre roads complaining that new drivers cant drive until after their criminal records check and DVLA verification of their drivers licenses is completed :roll:

(brought in by council to stop sex offenders operating with a temporary license)

So, the taxi drivers don't like sensible arrangements that have been put in place to protect the general public. Tough !!

Perhaps they should find work somewhere else.

 

[AlterEgo]

Umm...why? Are you saying that 'hardened fare dodgers' should just be left to get on with it unimpeded and unpunished in case dealing with them delays trains?

Put it this way: which is more expensive, a five minute delay leading to a PPM failure, or shrugging your shoulders at a little scrote who won't give you four pounds?

 

[furnessvale]

Put it this way: which is more expensive, a five minute delay leading to a PPM failure, or shrugging your shoulders at a little scrote who won't give you four pounds?

But then the word gets around and instead of one little scrote you have dozens.

 

[danbarnstall]

Interesting to note that some postings seem to make the point that a member of rail staff could prove a deterrent to certain types of "awkward passengers" yet there are others who have mentioned the assaults on rail staff.

From experience of travelling on the network a member of staff can deter anti social behaviour. This is especially applicable with younger teenage passengers or semi drunk passengers. They also provide assurance for elderly / vulnerable passengers.

There will be times when an individual may still be highly aggressive and will need to be restrained. That unfortunately is the way some people are wired, onboard staff (OBS or Guards) can only do so much before the heavies come in.

I know this is a DOO thread and I am going marginally off topic. This isn't a specific defence of the guards role, it is one supporting a second member onboard at all times.

 

[Dave1987]

I have noticed that those on here who advocate attacking the unions or who demand that others accept temporary contacts or zero hours contracts would all appear to be in stable careers themselves or have very decent pensions themselves. Definitely stinks of 'how dare anyone else aspire to have what I have got' :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have noticed that those on here who advocate attacking the unions or who demand that others accept temporary contacts or zero hours contracts would all appear to be in stable careers themselves or have very decent pensions themselves. Definitely stinks of 'how dare anyone else aspire to have what I have got' :roll:

Your final politically phased sentence sounds if it came "straight from the heart" so I will not make an answer that I was about to make about the rest of your posting in case the moderators feel I would have caused you angst.

All I will say in my defence is I have what I have in life is solely down to my own efforts and the "silver spoon in the mouth" syndrome most certainly does not apply to me.

 

[Dave1987]

Your final politically phased sentence sounds if it came "straight from the heart" so I will not make an answer that I was about to make about the rest of your posting in case the moderators feel I would have caused you angst.

All I will say in my defence is I have what I have in life is solely down to my own efforts and the "silver spoon in the mouth" syndrome most certainly does not apply to me.

Yet you attack people who work day in day out when you and your family are probably asleep, for daring to aspire to live in some sort of career and financial security.

 

[muz379]

The annoying thing on here is that everyone that is for DOO says the Guards 'ALWAYS' stays in the back cab and 'NEVER' goes into the passenger compartment. This is a scandalous statement and i get the feeling made by people with either an agenda or never travel by train. This is the accusation being made that no mersyrail guard ever comes through the train, i know the stock used is 507s which i believe are similar in layout to how i remember 313s that i use to work on. Sadly the last time i travelled on that line was when it was under BR so i dont know if they have been modified since and i certainly dont know what instructions on where the guard should be by Merseyrail (although judging by the comments someone must have access).

The thing that I find most laughable about those making this statement is that the logic of the situation is lost on them

If the guard always stays in the back cab when it is part of their Job Description to patrol the train then the company should be better managing its staff ensuring they carry out their duties as expected .

What makes those people think that merseyrail is going to manage roving teams of security staff any better . For all the management know they could be picking easy trains that they know there will be no trouble on to travel on , or having extended breaks in mess rooms .

 

[AntoniC]

As a regular commuter on Merseyrail, I feel that as a user of the service I can make the following comments :

1) The vast majority of guards do travel out in the carriages in order to conduct safe dispatch on the overground sections, they only sit in the guards cabs when the train is on the underground secctions.

2) The vast majority of guards DO NOT perform ticket checks, they leave these to the roaming RPI squads.

3) The guards that I have talked to, if offered redundancy will take it.

4) I feel safer when there is a guard on the train.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yet you attack people who work day in day out when you and your family are probably asleep, for daring to aspire to live in some sort of career and financial security.

I am 71 and my wife is 75 and we are the only two people in our residence. When I was in Canada from 1995 to 2004, heading our consultancy team on a Canadian Hydro project, many times we were on various construction sites at night on a regular basis, so just think carefully about such comments that you bandy about without having any knowledge of what were the involvement of other forum members in their own specific fields of employment.

I am all for people to do what I did in terms of career progression, but unlike you, I do not attach any current end of career status as a benchmark when over thirty years in the field of senior management in my own case, led to my current status in life. It was not so in the late 1970s and early 1980s when I had progressed from junior and middle management into the more senior roles that all my hard work was still in front of me. The higher you rise in industry, the more is expected of you and the more chance of demotion or redundancy if you cannot cope with the responsibilities that accrue to such senior roles.

 

[fowler9]

I am 71 and my wife is 75 and we are the only two people in our residence. When I was in Canada from 1995 to 2004, heading our consultancy team on a Canadian Hydro project, many times we were on various construction sites at night on a regular basis, so just think carefully about such comments that you bandy about without having any knowledge of what were the involvement of other forum members in their own specific fields of employment.

I am all for people to do what I did in terms of career progression, but unlike you, I do not attach any current end of career status as a benchmark when over thirty years in the field of senior management in my own case, led to my current status in life. It was not so in the late 1970s and early 1980s when I had progressed from junior and middle management into the more senior roles that all my hard work was still in front of me. The higher you rise in industry, the more is expected of you and the more chance of demotion or redundancy if you cannot cope with the responsibilities that accrue to such senior roles.

At the end of the day Paul I think that you and your good lady wife are rightly reaping the rich rewards of many years hard work. From what you say your life so far has been a real adventure and that can only be a good thing. The world has changed though. What my parents got after leaving school at 16 is no longer possible just through hard work.